AI, Branding & Career Growth with Kathryn Knox

Justin Levinson (00:00.642)‍

Hey everybody, welcome to the Agency Side podcast. My name is Justin Levinson, I am your host. I'm here today with Katherine Knox, who's the director of global talent acquisition at Trailer Park Group. I'm so excited to have you here today, Katherine, and share your story. So big, big thanks for you coming along here today.

‍

Kathryn Knox (00:18.997)‍

Thank you for asking. Super excited to talk to you.

‍

Justin Levinson (00:21.74)‍

Yeah, so the first thing I'd like to get into, and I know Trailer Park Group is a very well known entity in the agency space. I'm sure many of our viewers already know a lot about them, but maybe you could just give a you know, tell us a little bit about what Trailer Park does and what your job position is there.

‍

Kathryn Knox (00:41.459)‍

Yeah, so I'm the director of global talent acquisition. So Trailer Park Group for those that do know or don't know, even those that know us from the kind of trailers perspective and the coming attractions may not know the breadth of what we're doing now. So Trailer Park Group is a group of agencies that focus primarily on entertainment, but also on the brand side. And we do everything from, again, those trailers that were very well known for the coming attractions that you see at the beginning of a film or in a commercial. We do that for not only entertainment, theatrical, streaming,

broadcast television, all flavors of those clients, but we do it heavily in gaming as well. So we're in entertainment, kind of traditional entertainment. We're in gaming, we're doing integrated marketing, even on the brand side. So growing very quickly, when I started in 22, we were about four, five agencies, we're now 10. So rapid growth, we're global, we're in Mumbai, India, London, we've got employees in, I think, Columbia, we just did one, we've got Netherlands, Germany.

really rapid growth, super fun. And like I said, I've been here for a while, so really enjoying it and just love the company and the leadership. It's a great place.

‍

Justin Levinson (01:49.038)‍

Yeah, that's exciting. You are truly global in your title. are...

‍

Kathryn Knox (01:54.577)‍

I'm not kidding, every day I'm like, okay, we're going there. Let's go. I'm in it. Let's go.

‍

Justin Levinson (01:59.022)‍

That's awesome. Yeah, so how did you get into this particular space? I know you've been in the recruiting world for a long time. How did you end up in Creative Agency?

‍

Kathryn Knox (02:11.585)‍

So when I left my recruiting agency, I had poked around on opportunities. My background is actually marketing, which is funny. My first job, my first real job, was with a company. I mean, I've been around a while. Justin, I don't know if you've heard of them, but Hooked on Phonics. Do you remember Hooked on Phonics? You might have used it. did at a very young age. I got a really great opportunity to do their marketing. So I did radio ads. I did infomercials. did

‍

Justin Levinson (02:27.848)‍

Yeah, dude, yeah, yeah. Totally.

‍

Kathryn Knox (02:39.497)‍

entertainment, not entertainment, sorry, educational marketing. It was crazy. I did everything at a very young age. I just was so blessed to have this great opportunity. And so when I was poking around in market for something new, I saw a company that was not entertainment specific, but marketing and they hired me right away. I understood kind of their jam and how they did stuff and just loved it. And it was 50 different lines of business. was, it was bigger than trailer park group, but messy in all the good ways. kind of thrive off.

being on my toes and at my back. And so, yeah, so I did that for about seven years and just was done. You know, we all get there. And saw an ad for Trailer Park Group. I knew about them. As a matter of fact, at my old agency, they'd stated, and they weren't entertainment, they were just brand. If you get me creatives, go after Trailer Park. Like they'd said it for years. And they also said, I don't know if they're gonna love us. Those candidates may not be a fit, but try.

And so I knew the brand and I just had reached out to the CHRO at that time. And, and we talked and I met the leadership like three days later and got the offer and just jumped in. And so it's been really fun.

‍

Justin Levinson (03:52.546)‍

Yeah, that's really cool. was looking at your LinkedIn page a little bit and I noticed that you've been in other spaces too. So you have some experience doing tech recruiting. Is that another part of your experience?

‍

Kathryn Knox (04:04.073)‍

Yeah, my first recruiting job was with a company called Sabre, is what at the time was American Airlines as Travelocity. Now, and I was a junior recruiter there and I learned, you know, the old school technology stuff like COBOL, TPF and SAP when SAP was small and really loved it. It was dry marketing, so much more fun than IT, but it was dry. It was, you know,

It was right when the internet was really starting to hit from a recruiting perspective. So I was kind of on the, I tried to be on the forefront with the business and getting us into, you know, employer brand and all this stuff at a very young age. It was super fun. And so it was where I started and I kind of just followed that through. got very lucky after I left that company to work for, I don't know if it's a good name anymore, but Arthur Anderson, they kind of blew up there.

But it was with them for a while and then did a little bit of consulting and started my own company, which was technology. So it was more Oracle, that type of business apps.

‍

Justin Levinson (05:04.182)‍

Yeah, when you were first starting, Chris, you said it was just around the internet time. What was the business sort of looking like? You know, how was it working before internet? Were we using like a Rolodex a lot or was a lot of cold calling or what was sort of like the workflow when you were starting?

‍

Kathryn Knox (05:22.271)‍

Yeah, I don't remember the company did have an ATS. I don't remember the name of it. It's probably gone. but it was a lot of paper, lots of paper, email, email was great, but heavy old school, cold calling, going through physical books of talent. I wasn't sourcing as much at that junior level. was more of working on interviews and pushing people through. the cold sourcing wasn't as much of a thing for me.

‍

Justin Levinson (05:49.144)‍

Yeah.

‍

Kathryn Knox (05:49.259)‍

But there definitely was that old school like, my gosh, am I really going through 800 applies from a newspaper ad? Like, I can't believe we lived that. But yeah, we did. And so yeah, and then I brought in Bernard Ho's, which later became monster.com and ran with it. So I've seen some stuff.

‍

Justin Levinson (05:57.432)‍

Hahaha!

‍

Justin Levinson (06:04.93)‍

Whoa.

‍

Justin Levinson (06:08.884)‍

Yeah, yeah, that's really fascinating. When you started your own recruitment agency, were you kind of nervous at all? you had you sort of feel when you you launched that? And how did that come together?

‍

Kathryn Knox (06:22.721)‍

I started my agency the day before 9-11. So I was a little nervous. That was a little bit of a nerve wracking time. And then most of my contacts were from Arthur Anderson in technology. And then in February of 2022, that's when Anderson, I call it fell, it kind of fell apart. That was a blessing and a curse. And so I had not done agency recruiting prior to, I did a bit of a consulting, but I was literally going from corporate recruiting, which is very,

you know, sometimes not anymore. It was a lot of paper pushing. Um, it wasn't as cold source, like really go in and find talent, which is my favorite thing to do. So I learned, had to learn very quickly. Um, it was scary, but we just, it was a partner of mine who's still running the business. love her. Um, we just did it. Like sometimes you just do it, you know, jump in and see what happens. And, um, we only started with about $2,500. It wasn't a lot of money.

And that's the beauty of what we do, Justin. mean, anyone, it's a beauty and the curse. Anyone can do this job if they're really good at sales or they feel passionate about finding people and helping people through their career. That's the beauty. That's why I love to talk to, I mean, the market and TA is a little funky right now, but I do believe it's one of the best careers that you can do. And you can make a great living at it if you want to, either in the corporate or the agency side.

And was a lot of luck and a lot of networking and yeah, super scary, but sometimes you just do what's scary.

‍

Justin Levinson (07:57.942)‍

It's interesting though, I've always found with recruiting, like, you know, it seems like an easy job when you look at it on paper, when you're like, you know, job, resume, send, fill, like it looks so simple, but it's actually so complex because you're dealing with human beings and their careers and, and, know, they're, and they're dealing with their families and, and, and how that impacts them and their lives. they're then you're dealing with the employer.

and all their needs and wants in a deal. And it's a lot. It's a really it's like very I consider it like really high level sales. And I and it's really, it's a really interesting business. It's not like just selling a car where the person goes in and they they buy a car and then they they drive away and that's that's it. It's it's a much more multi dimensional transaction.

‍

Kathryn Knox (08:39.157)‍

Yes.

‍

Justin Levinson (08:57.358)‍

And, you know, so to see your career and to be able to work to the top of big company like Trailer Park, you know, it shows that you're obviously, you know, really talented at doing this particular job.

‍

Kathryn Knox (09:11.169)‍

thank you. No, I just love it. And I do think, I always say our inventory is recruiters as people. And so that's there's so many variables with people. And it is, it is a hard anybody that goes into recruiting. I always do say, though, I say it's easy, but it is a hard thing to do, because you have to have a fairly decent EQ, you have to understand people, you have to have empathy for them. You can't just all be about the deal. It's about the long term. But I do think

You have to have thick skin. Can't be the type that takes things personally. I think that was my biggest learning lesson in owning my own agency as you do. And you probably have learned it already and you were an agency before this. can't personalize it. It's really difficult not to, especially if you're working with referrals that you've known for 20 years. It's not about you. It's about the deal. And you have to be like, brush up, move on. And my team is so tired of me saying this, but I say it.

‍

Justin Levinson (09:42.712)‍

Yep.

‍

Kathryn Knox (10:09.825)‍

probably every couple of weeks, I say it too often, you're really only as good as your last deal. That's it. And so with that mentality, if your last deal doesn't work, you have to get up, you have to brush off, and you have to reset and go forward again. Because the other good thing about recruiting is forward action. It takes you where you need to go. Those nos take you to a yes. It's like sales. That forward action is your best, it's your

best thing when you're feeling down or you're feeling like you're not doing a good job, you can literally change it in a day.

‍

Justin Levinson (10:44.15)‍

Yeah, it is true. It's an interesting business because it's like what you put in, you can really, you know, you will get the results in the end. It's although it's a real highly relationship based business. It's also a bit of numbers to like, you know, the amount of people you have in the pipeline will increase your chances that the role will happen. And yeah, it's, I think when I was in when I started recruitment, you know, you know, especially in the beginning, I started at when I was

teaching music at the same time at a music school. was working at this music place called La Cagnata School of Music. I was working there teaching guitar and piano and voice. And I was also waiting tables at night. This was only 10 years ago, right? So a lot has changed in my life. I've got two kids and I have a house and a lot of things have changed. And I was starting to recruit for the first time, learning how to do it and trying to figure it all out.

‍

Kathryn Knox (11:29.481)‍

Yeah, that's awesome.

‍

Justin Levinson (11:43.326)‍

And I took it personally in the beginning, you know, you know, you and you know, you it's kind of like you're rooting for your horse in the race and you're on their team. And then when it you know, doesn't fall and you're ready to pop the champagne, you know, your friends like, yay, and then you get the call. And they're like, I'm actually I got this other thing that's going on. And, and how you react to that is really, I think what I've learned is really the secret sauce because

you know, I just had a person that turned down an offer yesterday with a company. And, you know, I just told her was like, all good, you know, I you have to do what's what's really good for you. And I don't want you to think that because this deal went south that you can't call me again the next time you're looking. In fact, I want to be the first person that you call, you know, an earlier version of me might have been like, what, what are you doing? I got you all the way out here. Why aren't you doing this for me? Yeah, there's a Beatles song like I mean, my like all about

‍

Kathryn Knox (12:35.423)‍

just wish we were gonna do this! Yeah, me, me, me.

this, I leave it by, you know, middle span.

‍

Justin Levinson (12:40.884)‍

know, George Harrison thing. Yeah, that sort of like was my mentality. So the resilience that you're talking about, really resonates with me.

‍

Kathryn Knox (12:50.965)‍

It does, yeah. I've, you know, I lost a deal this week too, so I can talk about it. I mean, it was exactly that. If this was the right decision for that person and I can't like, of course you want to talk people into stuff and are you sure? Like, let's talk about it. And that's part of the nuance of what we do. We're also therapists. So there's that. So we're just making sure that we're holding their hand through the right decision. Cause sometimes that decision is a great decision for them. And sometimes it's not, and you know it.

And so it's really hard to manage that and take yourself out of it. You don't have to be right. It's about their life, their path, and how do you help them through it. It may go south or it may be great, but you've got to be there and be that soft place to fall and not have them come back to you with their tail between their legs. Just understand that things happen and we're always here.

‍

Justin Levinson (13:39.502)‍

Yeah, it's a really, it's a fascinating business, but in the end, it really elevates, I think, every industry because we are finding the, you know, the best people and we're putting them at higher levels in their career and at, you know, hopefully a better, you know, a better place to work. And they're increasing the quality of the work they're putting out is better and better and better. And one thing I always get excited about, especially in the creative space is

Although I might not be cutting the trailer or, you know, I didn't write the copy or I had, wasn't a producer. I didn't bring any work. I had nothing to do with really anything except maybe I connected that editor or maybe I connected this person, that person. I see that, that TV spot on my LinkedIn feed. And I'm like, well, yeah, I didn't do anything, but I did kind of connect this person with this place and then they created it. So in a way I kind of had something to do with it, right?

‍

Kathryn Knox (14:36.481)‍

Well, it's the strategy that's fun for me. Like my favorite part is the business strategy of like, if I look at this person, where will they fit and how will I better their lives and better the organization? so you, and I always, again, I'm such a dork. I always talk to my team and tell them dorky state sayings, you have a direct impact on the growth of any business and how much power is that?

‍

Justin Levinson (14:47.426)‍

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (15:02.552)‍

Yeah.

‍

Kathryn Knox (15:03.233)‍

Like don't let anyone cause you know, corporate can be tough sometimes and you've got demanding hiring managers. Don't let anyone tell you that you're not good at what you do. I'm, I'm your boss. We'll work through it, but know that how important you are to this organization. will literally change that you could change the trajectory with a C suite or a senior level of an entire organization. How cool is that? Pretty cool. Work, but we enable it and we.

‍

Justin Levinson (15:14.659)‍

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (15:25.71)‍

Yeah.

It's awesome. Yeah, it is.

‍

Kathryn Knox (15:32.639)‍

We allow for better creatives to feel better with what they do, I think, if we put them in a good place.

‍

Justin Levinson (15:37.922)‍

Definitely. Yeah, it's a really, really great business. And I'm hopeful that, you know, as it changes, you know, I still am a firm believer that a somebody who is strong, you know, consultation, high level recruitment is always going to be, it's always going to be there because, yeah, some of our more mundane tasks might be automated or filtered through. But in the end, that person

that you're gonna talk to that's gonna really like you were just saying that who's gonna like lean on you and you're gonna be their therapist and all those complicated things. You you just can't replace those I don't think by a machine or a personality test or a or anything. And it takes that human touch to like, you know, you like, you know, you know, the people that you're working with. And when you speak with somebody, you're like, this personality is gonna fit with this person because you know, they're both kind of

they're both kind of talkers or this person's kind of quiet and, and they're more like reserves. And I think they'd make a great partner with this person who you know, it's really you have to know a lot about the ecosystem you're in. It's not just this cookie cutter thing where like, the skills look perfectly on this LinkedIn page, they're definitely going to work in this company. It's way it's way beyond that.

‍

Kathryn Knox (16:51.777)‍

Yeah.

‍

Kathryn Knox (16:55.829)‍

And I love technology. Like I love AI. My last place, I was on the professional services side, so more creative and C-suite, but they had a high volume function. So they'd hire several people, like 16,000 people in a month, like crazy volume. And they tried AI. They had a bot and sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn't. But they still had a high number of recruiters because they had to have those humans to...

really vet the candidates even at a high volume point where their individual contributors at the very lower end of the supply chain as far as talent. That sounds terrible, but you understand what I mean. But yeah, I mean, it is especially with what we do. AI is important. I love AI. I use it every day. And we're overloaded with data as recruiters. That's my biggest thing that I still have yet to figure out. I'm perpetually trying.

How do I take this copious amount of data of who these people are? Did their LinkedIn change? Did their jobs change? That for me is more about managing the data and reporting and using AI to help us be more efficient. This is the actual art of the deal. Can't do it, not yet.

‍

Justin Levinson (18:11.372)‍

Yeah, totally. was looking at a recent conference I went to where they're talking about lot of different AIG agents and what they can do. know Salesforce and a few of these other entities have them that are very effective in outbound sales, which is very effective for maybe an agency recruiter that is trying to pick up work and whatnot. But it's still, yeah, I think that the...

the campaigns still don't have that touch. know there's a client that I worked with that he told me that he was like, yeah, I knew that email that you wrote was AI because like, I know your tone, like know how you sound, like I'm like, cool, you know, hey, let me know later. Like I have a sound that I think when people have talked to me, they can picture that coming out of my voice. And the AI still comes out very formulaic of like,

‍

Kathryn Knox (18:52.954)‍

You're very, you're, you're very good.

‍

Justin Levinson (19:07.278)‍

I think you would be a great fit because of your experience at this, this and this or like whatever automated compliment it comes up with. It still doesn't like, don't hear, I don't hear Catherine's voice when I read that email. So yeah, I'm still, I still like the human touch in there.

‍

Kathryn Knox (19:22.367)‍

And you can even see it in LinkedIn, all the content. Like I have a love hate with LinkedIn. It's a great tool for recruiter and it's great tool for people looking for a job. But a lot of the posts you kind of look at them like, there's a lot of emojis there. You didn't write that or the tone. you said, it's just.

‍

Justin Levinson (19:24.942)‍

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (19:32.842)‍

No, I'm out.

‍

Justin Levinson (19:38.198)‍

It's hard to read it. Organizing the data is always a challenge. I'm always looking for ways to, because we know that people are, they're changing titles quickly, they're changing, their day rates are changing, can change quickly. So many different things can change and you can't be in touch with every single person every single second to know, unless you're like a superhero.

‍

Kathryn Knox (20:03.115)‍

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (20:03.902)‍

But you can try. One thing I've been trying to do, and I don't know if it's, you know, maybe tech people who are listening to this or, you know, might think I'm a fool. But what I'm trying to do is use Gmail like has built in Gemini. Obviously, that's kind of like in our system. I've been sort of trying to use that a lot to, you know, organize data so I can remind myself like, hey, like,

who are all of the social media managers that we've been speaking with right now that could be open for a new thing. And then Jim and I are like, and I'll spit it all out. And it'll kind of give me a it's a quick access to data, which sometimes feels even faster than the ATS, because it knows emails, it knows all of my resumes that I've not only put in the ATS, but I put in the drive. I've put in most of my conversation transcripts through, I've put those in the drive too. So I'm really trying to like sort of train.

Gemini to understand me and maybe even help me create content and help me organize just this insane world that we're living in.

‍

Kathryn Knox (21:09.813)‍

So crazy. There's a really cool tool. I've only played with it. I think we've talked about it before. It's called clay AI and then I'm trying, but I'm not technical either. know just enough to be dangerous, but it literally will take any list. So if you have like brain entertainment, Cleo's list, I want a list of all Cleo winners. want the agencies and the names of people that worked on those campaigns, right? It will take that data. If you scrape it, it will take that data or if you have a list and it will enrich it with their LinkedIn address or their portfolio or like

‍

Justin Levinson (21:15.648)‍

wow.

‍

Kathryn Knox (21:39.765)‍

the technology is out of this world. And but the downside is I still haven't figured it out. So I'm trying to work it, but you know, there's so many great tools out there. There really are.

‍

Justin Levinson (21:50.84)‍

Totally. Clay is super cutting edge and it was over my head too. I used it for a little while. had somebody who kind of held my hand through it, but it's not, you know, it's not.

‍

Kathryn Knox (22:00.853)‍

So robust, like my eyes cross.

‍

Justin Levinson (22:03.342)‍

Yeah, it's a it those all these tools are a lot to handle. And I think the more tools there are, can be we can also lose sight of what the business can be about, which is really like kind of what we were talking about with the people and the relationships and the consultation and all that other stuff, which is still so important. Well, I guess one thing is we're talking about that I'd be interested. I know we kind of discussed this a little bit before the call for the pod was, you know, as somebody who is, you know,

obviously involved in the hiring process, what are you looking for? For people who are trying to get a job at a trailer park or at other agencies too, what can sort of help them stand out in terms of getting someone like your eye?

‍

Kathryn Knox (22:53.343)‍

Yeah, I think a lot of the agencies use, mean, still LinkedIn, it's still LinkedIn recruiter is a tool that's very heavily used. And when I'm, actually will coach people in either outplacement or someone reaches out to me they need help and they ask for it. If I have time, I'll actually do like a one-on-one with them and I'll share my screen and I'll show them the back end of LinkedIn. I do it all the time. This is what a recruiter sees. This is what, when they have 200 profiles they're going after, they're going to look at your headline.

and they're going to look at your about. And the headline, if it doesn't say that you're a theatrical editor and you also love social and you have agency experience, if it doesn't say any of that, I might pass it by because I'm like, bam, bam, bam, it's data. That part isn't as personal, but it is true when you're building projects and targets. I we recruit, you recruit. Like this is not about applies. Applies, think most people will tell you.

There's so many applies that aren't a fit that it's hard to get to you. So I'm a big advocate of people really using LinkedIn, like their resume, put as much data as possible on there, ensure your headline is a call out to what you do. And then in that about or summary, I think we see it as about, I don't know, it might be flipped in recruiting, but it looks different in recruiter than the regular LinkedIn. Bullet point, it make it really easy for the recruiter to see. like a quick couple.

sentences on top of what you do and then talk about if you're able to talk about the clients you've worked on the types of campaigns what you want is as important as what you did so are you looking for hybrid are you looking anything it could be 10 bullet points it could be five but anything that enables a recruiter to see very quickly what you're about i mean we're in the age of social media the quick quick hit is important

And then I also have people to put a list of agencies together. What are your targets? Who do you want to work for? Who do you know in common? If you don't know, here's what I love about creatives. They're super nice. They want to talk about their craft. They want to help each other. Like that's been my experience. that's the difference between creative and it's, it was so dry and creative. You just see a portfolio and you know everything about someone. And it's so fun. it's good for poaching too. You can kind of like find something out. but.

‍

Justin Levinson (24:55.214)‍

Thanks

‍

Kathryn Knox (25:14.483)‍

Make sure your portfolio is on LinkedIn to share that 100%. Yeah. And so you can reach out to people and make connections, go after the ECDs, the CDs, get to know them. People want to help you. Sometimes like, I'm sure you're inundated. I'm inundated. It takes me a minute to get to you. And sometimes people fall through the cracks, honestly, because I'm getting so many emails, but it does work. I'll get a message from, you know,

leader at the company says, hey, this person hit me up. So I'll pay attention to that quicker than I will in ATS, honestly. And those types of little tricks really seem to help people get work. That's been my experience.

‍

Justin Levinson (25:50.52)‍

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (25:56.014)‍

Yeah. I mean, you totally hit the nail on the head and how I see it as well. I mean, the LinkedIn pages is is the candidates number one lead generation tool. Really, it really is. And I think a lot of people who aren't on it are really missing out. think when I was younger, I was like LinkedIn, what the heck is that? Like, but now I see you can really see the value of it. But I guess I would also

‍

Kathryn Knox (26:13.866)‍

Yeah.

‍

Kathryn Knox (26:18.881)‍

Clients can find you too, don't forget that. Like, it's marketing.

‍

Justin Levinson (26:23.192)‍

Totally, it is. And I would say just to add to your point about some of those key details, you mentioned the portfolio. Also, is it current and is your password working? That's another big one because I don't know if creatives always know that that can really be a make or break in a short amount of time. It's showing that you're, you

‍

Kathryn Knox (26:36.82)‍

Yes.

‍

Justin Levinson (26:48.814)‍

it's kind of burning the time of the person that's looking at it. And if you're working with a recruiter, that could be a message to another recruiter who's got to find out that the link doesn't work or they sent it to another creative and it's got to come all the way back to chain to getting the right one. And then you have anything current, we don't have anything, is there anything new? And then going all the way back to chain again, by the time it's coming down the chain, up the chain, you may have already missed having the opportunity. So it seems like a small detail, but I've seen it, I've seen it burn people before and it can be frustrating.

‍

Kathryn Knox (27:19.765)‍

And then even bring your work on LinkedIn, like that featured, I think there's a feature area. You can put some reels down there. I do agree. It's so funny. Cause I'll send books all the time to people. I know that they're really good. I know that they're good because of where they work and the type of work they've done. And I've heard they're good from other people, but I'll look at that portfolio and I'm like, yeah, there's no way they're going to buy it. They're going to say this is dated. They're not going to buy it. There's no social on this. It's a social role. That kind of stuff.

‍

Justin Levinson (27:22.989)‍

Yes.

‍

Kathryn Knox (27:45.383)‍

It probably can be overwhelming to creatives and anyone sometimes, but it does really matter. It differentiates you.

‍

Justin Levinson (27:52.226)‍

Yeah, I've always been an advocate for posting about like you had mentioned, post, posting your work, posting your work, but also just showing that you're an expert in your niche, keeping your title very key to what you want, you know, and what your true level is, which can be difficult because different companies have no different sizes or different levels, but

You know, if you are really a social, you know, media manager or commute social community manager, like, you know, you don't want to be putting like that, like you're the CEO of your own little company or that you are a director, like freelance director, like we really need to know like, what if you want to be sought after, it's got to be very clear that this is what you do, like the

it's very difficult. A lot of people have the sort of the drag of all trades. I'm a social media manager, post producer, gaming expert, athletic expert, high fiver, like 10 million things. And I'll be like, dude, I don't know what I'm sure you're awesome. What do you do? have no idea. And so that can be challenging. And you know, aesthetics do matter, and especially as creatives, like, and I don't mean like how we look as human.

‍

Kathryn Knox (28:58.389)‍

What do do? Like, what do do?

‍

Justin Levinson (29:13.366)‍

beings, I just mean like, is your picture kind of crisp? You know what I mean? Does it look kind of cool? Like in the creative space, we have a little bit more of leniency where we don't need to have a very corporate photo with a suit and tie. That's you know what I mean? But does it look kind of cool? And does your banner look like it, you know, it's very cohesive, and that you have a cohesive style. Because if someone is going to put trust in you to

be a creative director on a giant campaign, but then you're a designer, but your picture is a pixelated photo of you from 2002 from a flip phone. it's like, it's not going to translate into that this person is really gonna be the ideal candidate. And it's too bad because that person may be like the best person ever, but they're gonna get through.

‍

Kathryn Knox (30:08.787)‍

It's so great. And even like there's RFPs that agencies go on, right? And you've been, I'm sure you've been on some ramps in your past or been asked to help with some hiring. So there's an RFP, a company will be going to a client and saying, this is my team potentially, are you in it? And sometimes those have portfolios and companies can lose deals over that if that portfolio isn't, they won't hire you. Like it's the thing. So, especially cause we're, I mean, the type of creative work we do.

And most creatives seem to do, I mean, copy is different, but the visual effect of what you're putting in the marketplace is your calling card. And if it doesn't look as well as you wanted, or it should, people are going to pass you up. It's unfortunate. And then I also think like you'd said about your comms and people know your cadence and they understand you. Talk about what you love. Talk about what's fun. You can have in your about page. one, my favorite recruiting story, it's so silly, but I love it.

When I was at my last company, I had a woman who was an art director and I wanted her, was with a competitor and she would not call me back or ping me back for the life. So I'm like looking at her portfolio, I'm like, okay, this is what I'm gonna do. She loves Star Wars. She's a huge Star Wars fan. So, and this benefited me more than her obviously, but it's kind of an example of that. So I look at the portfolio, I'm like, okay, I had a burger next to Mark Hamill. Who's Luke for those that don't know Star Wars? Those two people in the world.

And they don't know who Luke is either. So I don't know why I said that. But I emailed her and I said, hey, I know we haven't talked. I didn't take it personally. I know how busy you are. Made it about that. But I want to talk to you about Mark Hamill. I had a burger next to him. I want to tell you the story. Give me a call. She pinged me in 10 minutes. It's one of my favorite stories. Like, that's why I love creative recruiting. Because you can find out, like, don't be afraid to be yourself and like,

‍

Justin Levinson (31:54.228)‍

That's awesome.

‍

Justin Levinson (31:59.021)‍

Yeah.

‍

Kathryn Knox (32:03.915)‍

talk about what you love and your passion because creatives love that stuff. We love to talk about what's your favorite movie? Who's your favorite band? What did you do on the weekend? Like we're about life, I feel. And that's, want to differentiate yourself to be.

‍

Justin Levinson (32:17.24)‍

Yeah, I view that as that is like a prime example of high level sales though in recruiting like that was that was like hyper strategic. Those are like the thoughts that I am always trying to find those sort of things. But yeah, I give yourself some super kudos because that is that is

‍

Kathryn Knox (32:26.911)‍

Yeah.

‍

Kathryn Knox (32:38.177)‍

We didn't do it. They wouldn't meet her salary, but it wasn't my fault. I did my job. I found the best candidate. I wanted her. We all wanted her. She bit, went to interview, got to offer, and they felt, you can't only control so much, but that's why the business is so fun. You can do these things. It's as creative as you want to be.

‍

Justin Levinson (32:53.123)‍

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (32:59.116)‍

You have to be tenacious and you can be creative, but you have to walk that line too, where you're not too like kind of like the crazy ex-boyfriend that's like, hello, you wanna hang out? Come on over, please.

‍

Kathryn Knox (33:06.207)‍

the cheese ball. Texting them all day. But yeah, I mean, you have to learn when to chill. it's, you know, that's fun. But the same goes with the talent that I mean, our clients, our internal clients, or your external clients are their clients too, if they're not using you, or they're not using me, and they want to find something. Connecting with people is the best way to do it. Hey, find the ECDs portfolio and send them a message about their portfolio. There's 500

You can do that as an agency as well. mean, there's 500 ways to do this. It's all marketing. That's all it is. It's marketing and sales and being not giving up. And I want to add one. go ahead.

‍

Justin Levinson (33:40.398)‍

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (33:45.036)‍

Yeah, and also, yeah, I don't want I don't want to stay.

‍

Kathryn Knox (33:48.865)‍

No, no, one thing that's really important that even as recruiters, I don't always do enough. And you, think you're using technology hopefully to do this, but I was on with LinkedIn, I think about a month ago and they said 87 % of responses happen in the second or third message. That's a big number. So don't give up. Don't be creepy, but don't give up.

‍

Justin Levinson (34:04.453)‍

yeah, yep. Yep.

‍

Justin Levinson (34:11.564)‍

Yep, I 100 % agree because they get get buried. And yeah, like multi channel approaches that are you know, you have to be a squeaky wheel. My mom always said that squeaky wheel gets the oil. And I, I definitely walk a line but you can make it fun too and kind of making that copy when you're reaching out to people I enjoy doing because

It's like, hey, it's your favorite recruiter, Justin again, emailing you for the 12th time, just want to see if you would give me a time a day, you know what mean? Like you can kind of play with it. And then some people will be like, yeah, yeah, he knows he's annoying me. I'll just like, I'll say uncle and I'll talk to this dude, you know? So there's always ways to kind of to get in. It's fun when it happens. And then, you know, of course you get some answers back that are just like, no, period. And you're like, okay, I get where you're from.

‍

Kathryn Knox (35:02.837)‍

Get it? Yeah, well, okay. But then what you can do is be, know, have levity where appropriate. And that's the good thing about creative recruiting. It's not tech. mean, the tech is, again, it's very dry. I loved it, but it's very dry. So it's a different way to build relationships. But I think it's so important just to be human and humble and do the best we can. And even as a recruiter, like I said, there's people, unfortunately, that have pinged me that...

‍

Justin Levinson (35:04.235)‍

No, you're stepping in.

‍

Kathryn Knox (35:29.481)‍

I take a long time sometimes because I'm inundated, you're inundated, it's what happens. But if I get a second or third message, I'm nine times out of 10 responding because I feel terrible. And I often will like, I just had a interview this morning with someone who pinged me a few times on LinkedIn and was tenacious. And I talked to him and I'm putting forward, it happened. So it does, you just have to drop, you know, kind of ride that fine line.

‍

Justin Levinson (35:40.451)‍

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (35:58.744)‍

Yeah, totally. one other thought I was having about LinkedIn too is also like the energy that we're putting out there too. think that with like, you know, being very active and posting is a great thing, but the how positive it is really helps. Like how can you add value? How can you, even this for candidates, like how can you help, you know, what can you offer opposed to what can you do for me? That, I think that really

resonates with people. And also just like, you know, as frustrating as it can be to not find a job or if the recruiter is not responsive or whatever it may be, the the errands of grievances as the side of the So they pass the line. Yeah, the errands of grievances where you pass the ball around for a professor like LinkedIn is not a great place for that. It's really a place for like, you know,

‍

Kathryn Knox (36:42.333)‍

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (36:54.55)‍

what you can offer for value and that sort of thing. I think tone does matter because, know, I don't know if everyone knows who is listening that's a candidate or applying for jobs, but you know, when I am close to closing on a candidate, not only am I looking into their references, but I'm also looking at

social media presence in other places, not to feel too stocky, but you gotta do your homework on people. So wherever your imprint might be, it is important and good recruiters are gonna do that. Do all those, turn over all those rocks to make sure that it's gonna be a good match.

‍

Kathryn Knox (37:37.377)‍

I have a friend on like, I'm still on Facebook a little bit trying to get out, not doing it yet, but also I use it for recruiting. I have a friend who every day posts, she's having a really hard time, but every day she'll post three things she's grateful about every day. Do that. a human being. And also, you know, it could be, I've sent out 20 resumes, didn't get a hit, but I'm grateful that I have the technology to do it. Or people respond to positivity. They don't respond to.

‍

Justin Levinson (37:53.964)‍

Yeah.

‍

Kathryn Knox (38:06.763)‍

kind of the negative vibe. And I get it. I've been there. We've all had negative, but LinkedIn's not Facebook. Like you can be political and be appropriate, but don't get into fights with people. Don't say horrible things. Like, do I really want this person to lead people when they're talking on the internet about that? Like those types of things. And again, I want you to be passionate politically. I want you to have, you know, a internal constitution on things, but just be careful. Be careful.

‍

Justin Levinson (38:12.044)‍

Holy.

Exactly.

‍

Justin Levinson (38:35.628)‍

Yeah, 100%. Totally. I was gonna ask you something that's I'm having a senior moment for a minute, that's such a great conversation because, know, I was excited, I'm excited to have you because, you know, it's, it's so every part of an agency is so important. It's, you know, of course, the people that are doing the creative, but who's bringing the creative, I there's so many parts in a creative agency from from

‍

Kathryn Knox (38:36.225)‍

Good to

‍

Kathryn Knox (38:43.617)‍

That's my job, Destin.

‍

Justin Levinson (39:05.422)‍

operations to finance to, you know, the whole, from top to bottom, if one thing isn't functioning, the whole thing isn't functioning. And I want people to, you know, understand the value of talent acquisition and also how challenging your job is, what it's like, and you've given us some really good insights as to what it is like. What would you...

say is, know, do you have any, like, I one of the biggest challenges that you feel like you that you face, like what what's sort of like the the most difficult part of your gig?

‍

Kathryn Knox (39:46.721)‍

I think that most corporate recruiters often feel a challenge of ensuring that they have the tools that they need because in an agency, it's billable. It's all about the billable. Of course it is. I mean, that's what we do, but ensuring that the cost centers are well-funded is important. That's sometimes tough. And then again, I mentioned the copious amounts of data because if I don't see someone's open to work quickly, like LinkedIn will notify people. I get a notification, someone...

open is open to work. get it within two seconds if they're in my target project list as an example. But the data is so heavy that I'm still I still struggle with that my whole team does. And then really just ensuring that we're closing out candidates appropriately. I still I struggle with that sometimes because of workload and it feels terrible. And so that's something that we are working my team's working heavily on.

‍

Justin Levinson (40:40.504)‍

And how many people are on your team at Descent Curiosity?

‍

Kathryn Knox (40:43.925)‍

Well, we're small now. I have three recruiters at this point. Because it depends on where the business is, we bring freelancers in and out and all that great stuff. And regardless of the number of folks, it's still the data that I feel like I can't get my arms around. It's just always, it's perpetually a thing. And multiple areas of data, thank God.

‍

Justin Levinson (41:00.931)‍

Yeah.

‍

Kathryn Knox (41:07.841)‍

You know, we use greenhouse, greenhouses integrated now with LinkedIn. And so I can see all the comms in one place, but there's still outlook and people are using outlook and not keeping it in greenhouse. So just ensuring that there's one source of truth is often a struggle. Um, but that's me just, you know, being blacks in my management of where you're keeping me. Cause I know I'm the same way. We're busy. It's hard. Um, but I like what you'd said earlier about, you know, the amount of, of connects and the

‍

Justin Levinson (41:25.004)‍

I'm

‍

Kathryn Knox (41:36.075)‍

People aren't always open to it and all that. Just ensuring that when people are hearing from a recruiter, kind of had a, especially now, because it's still tough a little bit, bad reputation. A lot of recruiters, because there's no barrier to entry, there are people that will lie to you and not be great stewards of your information and all that. Just try to have a fresh perspective when someone reaches out to you, because most of us really want to not just make the placement, we want to take care of you.

‍

Justin Levinson (41:45.422)‍

Yeah. Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (41:58.03)‍

Yeah.

‍

Kathryn Knox (42:05.791)‍

Like we really do. If we have any empathy or integrity, we want to try to find the right position for you and, and make sure that you've got opportunity. And who doesn't want that?

‍

Justin Levinson (42:16.91)‍

Definitely, 100%. For the good recruiters out there, it's not all about the money and the deal. It's about the relationship and wanting to help other people. Nobody wants to set somebody else and their whole life up for failure by putting them in a position that's going to make life harder for their family. If you're a person of integrity, you don't want that for anybody.

‍

Justin Levinson (42:45.526)‍

It's a thing. I think there are good recruiters out there. But like you said, there is not a lot of bar to entry. You get a lot of people that just like spray and pray, you know, they're just like, they're not doing the business correctly. They're throwing things at a wall and they're kind of hoping and and yeah, I mean, you know, one out of every 100 of those you might get something that sticks. But it's also really hurts the industry because you want to have people that are really professional.

‍

Kathryn Knox (42:55.071)‍

in life.

‍

Justin Levinson (43:13.454)‍

that are, you know, that are representing your brand authentically, skillfully, and, you know, it's not about getting into the negative and trash talking and getting into that world. It's about like, hey, this is an opportunity that I think could make your life better. And this is why I think it could be better. And if it's not better, you should stay where you are and do what you're doing. You know, I tell people all the time, like, listen,

Are you about to get a promotion to that next job title? Because if you are going to get it, you should wait it out till you get it there first, then call me and then maybe we'll look at making it to the next level. But let's not pivot you to another company for a linear job that's just more money if you think you're going to get this title bump, because this is what's going to help your career going forward. I might make money doing it, but it's not going to be in their best interest. And I'd rather get that phone call back in a year later saying, hey, Justin.

‍

Kathryn Knox (44:01.749)‍

Yes.

‍

Justin Levinson (44:10.67)‍

I'm so glad you told me to hang on. I now have the title I'm looking for and I have that, I have that my stock is up higher for the next opportunity. Now I'm ready, you know?

‍

Kathryn Knox (44:18.849)‍

Totally. And you never know what's going to happen. mean, not to be depressing or fatalistic, but you know, there's layoffs, stuff happens. You should always be open to those conversations just to see what could happen in the next week or two weeks or three weeks. It's always, there's no harm in even just replying to a message.

‍

Justin Levinson (44:39.414)‍

Yeah, and I think that being reciprocated, as much as recruiters need to be nice to candidates, and definitely there's a lot of improvement that can be done in our industry. And I think that the evolving technology is going to slowly weed out the people that aren't doing the business as correctly. But candidates, just like you said, I've had candidates that have approached them in the past, and they've said,

No, I would never go through a recruiter. I know everybody in the industry, right? Okay, that's all right. And then they're out of work. And they're like, Hey, Justin, I'm looking for new opportunity. And I'm like, Oh, wait, I swear you I saw that previous message that you know, everybody in the industry, you'd never use a recruiter. Oh, that's weird. Of course, I'm not like that. I mean, in my mind, like the devil in my shoulder is like, but I will still help, you know what I mean? But I'm

‍

Kathryn Knox (45:30.913)‍

So, to try to get it faster.

That's, yeah.

or even when you dirty people. Like I've had a candidate not show up and six months later say, hey, I saw this. And I'm like, yeah, no. Yeah, we don't do that.

‍

Justin Levinson (45:46.878)‍

Yeah. The foodies are like elephants. We will not forget.

‍

Kathryn Knox (45:52.639)‍

or petty sometimes. Maybe that's just me. But no, it's like, on, man. All you have to do is make a call. No one's gonna beat you up.

‍

Justin Levinson (45:54.412)‍

Yeah. Well.

Well.

when I was a waiter and there were like regular customers that were that I knew were just not good tippers, you'd recognize their face and I'd be like, like there's and even if I didn't remember it, there'd be something about them. I'd be like, something, something wrong. Same thing. It's kind like the LinkedIn profile in our minds to were like something about that person that I don't know about them. But sorry, go ahead.

‍

Kathryn Knox (46:23.617)‍

And I, I'm sorry. I was gonna say even like, really try to focus on LinkedIn because I get socials. And if you want to be crazy on your page on Facebook or Insta or whatever, have fun, but like you can't associate your brand or the company's brand with that. have to be careful.

‍

Justin Levinson (46:39.438)‍

Totally. I guess last question here, because I know we're kind of running out of time, but I guess outside of recruiting, maybe you can tell us what you just like to do in your free time and what kind of things you enjoy outside of this wonderful world.

‍

Kathryn Knox (46:55.019)‍

So I have a 13 year old and I have a 19 year old stepdaughter. So I hang out with them. My stepdaughter's at another, she's at college now. So that's been more difficult, but I'm a huge music fan. We haven't even gotten into it. Cause I know you're into music too. Like I moved during COVID, I moved to Lake Arrowhead. So I'm not in Hollywood anymore.

So I don't go as often as I used to, but my favorite thing is going to a show. I just love music. so, or watching stuff on television music related, the SNL 50 music show was amazing. I don't know if you've seen it yet, but amazing. And you know, I'm just a big fan. a huge music fan. So that's usually when I'm not with the kids and the family, I'm at a show.

‍

Justin Levinson (47:38.382)‍

Awesome. Cool. Well, we definitely have that in common as well. Huge music guys. People can see my guitars in the back, which I always joke about.

‍

Kathryn Knox (47:45.846)‍

Yeah, we were at 60s, 70s, are you everything?

‍

Justin Levinson (47:49.486)‍

I'm really into the 60s. That's sort of my big, like the Beatles and the Beach Boys and the zombies and that kind of stuff. Like Power Pop has always been my favorite. yeah, I'm sure we could have a whole other podcast talking about music. yeah, thanks so much for being on, Catherine, and giving us some of your insights and talking. I really had a great time having you on here today.

‍

Kathryn Knox (48:14.677)‍

Thank you, my friend. appreciate you and thanks for asking. Okay.

‍

Justin Levinson (48:17.644)‍

All right, take care. Bye.