Creative Industry Insights with Sam Cryer

Justin Levinson (00:00.847)‍

Hey, welcome to the Agency Side podcast. My name is Justin Levinson. I am your host. I'm here today with Sam Cryer, who is the CEO, founder of Intermission Films, a wonderful creative agency specializes in AV design. And I'm so excited to hear your story, Sam. Thank you so much for being here today.

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Sam (00:22.434)‍

Thanks for me Justin.

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Justin Levinson (00:23.907)‍

Yeah, well just to get into it, I know I just gave a really quick pitch, but maybe you can tell the viewers exactly what you guys do at intermission.

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Sam (00:34.67)‍

We're a creative agency that specializes in entertainment, film, specifically film and series. We get to have fun with all the big films, series, know, and early development of those. So we work in trailers, TV spots, socials, key art, creative content, kind of spinning off ideas from the great...

work that other people are making almost in some ways and working out how to package it and how to boil down say two hours into two minutes or even sometimes 20 seconds. It's like we get these novels and we create haikus out of them.

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Justin Levinson (01:22.779)‍

That's interesting analogy. I haven't heard that one before but there's certainly an art to what you guys are doing there. How did you get into this particular space?

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Sam (01:36.849)‍

How did get into it? I started, I was initially, I studied kind of English and theatre and then got, and then I was running club nights and then my dad was like, are you gonna get a proper job? And proper job meant that I had to go, I wanted to go into film because essentially I always loved films growing up. I was the kid that always wanted to go and go early and watch all the trailers.

I grew up in a small town and you kind of got choice. You're to hang in the park drinking booze the whole time or you can slip into the cinema and watch films. So I did that and also get into the VHS shops and getting the first ones out and all that kind of stuff. So film was kind of my love. Theatre was a lot easier to get into in the UK especially. This was all before mobile phones and

I sound old, you know, before you can pick up a phone and make a film. And then, you know, I was always about audiences and I think the film always talks to a wide audience. So I got a job as a runner, worked in commercial production initially. You know, I was always like, I had a choice actually at the beginning, because there was a really cool video video brand, which I loved, which was called Tartan that released all the kind of

Southeast Asian kind of horror, know horrors and they also released Lahane and things like that all these great But they were paying nothing. So whereas commercial running in it running in commercials was a lot more And I was lucky to work some really great directors did that for a while You know was on set and those kind of things and then I Left there because it was insane, you know, the as they expected you so I was I actually did it

shoot and kind of went a bit AWOL but that's another story. I learned that the directors were really strong and the British commercials really were at that point, was early 2000s, were really really great. was like, know, Glaze was making stuff and I worked for a guy called Frank Brudgen and he was creating kind of really great pieces of almost art in some ways.

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Sam (03:53.262)‍

And then I got Joel, and then I was a runner, and then someone went to me, do you like music and can you write? And I was like, yeah, yeah, I think so. And they gave me a test as a copywriter. And the guy that ran the company was a guy called Chris Fowler. And Chris Fowler and Jim, and they were the first people in the UK to set up an entertainment creative agency. And that was, they'd set it up 20 years almost before that, before I was there.

And I remember Chris saying, yeah, you get into the arse end of the industry. And I was like, I don't care. It's the industry. So it's kind of, and hey, I get to watch films and I get to write and watch films. And then you're asking me to choose the music. That's great. And then you're to give me a film and then you're going to ask me to work with an editor to, you know, I know how much effort goes into films. It's like years and years of babies. And I was, well, a few years out of uni and they were giving me this

film to essentially play around with and write and recreate in some ways. So was like, this is cool. And yeah, I was also really lucky because we had the film Channel 4 account then and I did launch some big shows. I actually launched, like was at the beginning of Big Brother and things like that. And it was like, you know, you get these briefs and you're like, this is kind of crazy, but...

And then you suddenly see, and then you start seeing a work, you know, I remember kind of coming up, you know, I did, I was a, I guess I was a bit impatient when I was younger, probably still am. And there was, they had these creative meetings and sometimes they just go on for ages and ages and ages. I'll be just like, look, this is the idea, just do this idea, go with this idea, you know, which must have been really irritating for

more senior people in there because this young kid had come in. Yeah and then sorry I'm going a bit of a ramble so yeah was there for a while. Yeah and there was you know there was other great shows that we got to work on and good you know good films and I was there for a kind of like probably a couple of years and then there was another company called Empire they were setting up an AV department

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Sam (06:16.11)‍

and they needed a copywriter and they never had a copywriter in there before. So I kind of went in there kind of, actually, I'm sorry, I've got to go back to CP because the team of copywriters we had there were great. They were pretty, you know, they were just a really good bunch of people and all of them are kind of still went on to kind of bigger and better things in the industry. Actually, all of them went to LA, but and they all kind of so it was great learning from, you know, there was Paul Noble who sadly passed away.

last year he went on to Sony International, Mark Lafontaine, who's kind of like a Buddha, a called Alan Marlin, and they all kind of took me under their wing slightly as well. And then there was also Chris, who was a novelist as well, and just a great guy who had amazing stories about Soho. And in those days, Soho was the heart of the UK film industry. He had all these film stars. I went there the first day.

I think it was like first week, Ewan McGregor came to watch the football there and I was like, this is pretty, you know, and yeah, I'd grown up with, you know, I trained sporting was another reason I wanted to get into the, you know, the advertising, the kind of creative advertising side of this. So went to Empire, worked there for a while. So, you know, was at beginning of their AV department, kind of tried to join the print department with the AV department through writing. And I think writing, good writing is always about.

positioning and strategy and just kind of, it's more than just a tagline, it's more than just, you know, and that was good. Stayed there about six years, then left there and went freelance. I was like, I'm, yeah, I'm going freelance. I'm going to write this script. I'm going to all these kind of like all this other stuff that I had planned. And then

I don't know if this means anything to any of these people listening, the way, all these names just dropping.

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Justin Levinson (08:16.635)‍

I think there is a, we do have a bit of a cult following in theatrical marketing, brand influencer and in experiential. So I think, I mean, I know a lot of the names that you're actually mentioning. So.

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Sam (08:24.195)‍

Fine.

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Sam (08:28.398)‍

Okay, I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. kidding around with names and they're like, anyway.

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Justin Levinson (08:34.359)‍

No, think it will resonate with certainly with some folks and if they don't know, should look these folks up on LinkedIn because I definitely know some of them are legends in the industry.

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Sam (08:39.874)‍

Yeah.

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Sam (08:45.794)‍

So Create Advertising was setting up a London office and they came to me and they were like, sorry, I'll give you the full backstory of my CV. Create Advertising set up a London office and I was like, I'm not interested. then I was like, actually it's quite interesting because what I can learn is everything I've learned in Europe and you know, in England and then the kind of LA way. And that was quite, you know, so I learned.

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Justin Levinson (08:52.856)‍

No, no, it's great.

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Sam (09:15.758)‍

the different way of working, which is very, it is quite different. There is a kind of different kind of, so I was like, look, and they were very kind of, this is the way we work, this is the way we do things. I was like, yeah, that's great. But you're also hiring British talent. So they work in a slightly different way. So I think what you need to do is kind of meet somewhere in the middle. And yeah, beforehand, they were very beholden to the LA office, you know, and kind of the CD there and all this kind of stuff. And you got to have an identity over here. You've got to

stand for something over here. So did that for a while, about a year and a half kind of gave them a good foundation left there. And again, was planning to write my script. And then clients were kind of saying, can you do some bits and you know, was doing bits and bits and bobs and then one thing led to another, an editor I was love working with became free.

bumped into some people in Cannes who had a post house. It happened to be at end of my street and then I was like, look, if I'm starting this then I know what I'm like. If I start something then it's just going to start snowballing, start kind of rolling and start becoming bigger. So A, it's great it's the end of my street because I can get home quite easily.

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Justin Levinson (10:36.602)‍

Yeah.

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Sam (10:40.534)‍

Also, it was also in East London as well. When I first moved to London, I'd moved to East London. I'd seen that area change and I'd seen that. Everyone else was in Soho and I was like, no, I want to be in East London. And one of the reasons as well was that I love working with filmmakers and I also love working with up and coming filmmakers. And I think I got to a point with working in CERN.

you know, certain agencies where you weren't allowed to work with them because of budget restraints or stuff like that. I was like, look, there is a way that you can, I think there's a way you can balance this and you can tend the ecosystem and look after the ecosystem of the people that coming up. But equally, you know, the people that pay the essentially the people that pay the bills in some ways. And I think anyone, know, anyone that works in film,

I know that directors certainly work that way. They sometimes do one for themselves and one for the studios or something like that. I think that's kind of the ethos that I had as well and kind of developing new talent, bringing new people on, trying to get people that weren't just always from, I mean, we met, obviously this doesn't always count anymore, but not just people from...

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Justin Levinson (11:55.61)‍

Yeah.

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Sam (11:57.358)‍

my industry or from the specifically from trailer and you have to do that and you had to do that in the UK as well because we don't have it's not like LA where you know there's loads of shops doing doing this kind of stuff. We have great editors here we have great designers here but they might not be working in this world they might not even know this world exists like I did I didn't know this world existed you know just thought when I first when someone first as I said first came up and said can you write do you want to do this I'm like

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Justin Levinson (12:10.266)‍

Yeah.

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Sam (12:26.722)‍

Wow, I didn't realize there were people that actually paid to do this. I thought this was part of the studio. So someone like that would do it.

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Justin Levinson (12:33.071)‍

Were you were you nervous when you first I mean, sounds like it was just like cosmic. And it just one thing just happened after another that sort of led you to where you are. But, you know, were you sort of nervous about starting your own? You know, your own creative agency? Was it? Did you ever like have any second thoughts about it or worried if it was going to be something that would continue to be fruitful? Or what were your thoughts at that time?

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Sam (13:01.006)‍

I didn't have any second thoughts because I had no kind of no other options in some ways, you

I'm a good, I'm not the best employee sometimes. And I think it took me a while to realize that. I'm good in short bursts, I'm good in that way, but I think that to sit in a structure sometimes was quite hard for me. And naturally I ping around a lot, so I need to surround myself sometimes with people that just kind of take those pings and kind of organize them a bit better.

Was I nervous? No, I wasn't to be honest with you because I had nothing to really frankly lose.

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Sam (13:48.822)‍

And I've done stuff like, you know, if you've done, I know it sounds stupid. If you've done club nights or stuff like that, you know that sometimes you're to make a loss and you know that sometimes you're going to kind of, you're going to, you know, be doing something you love, your own, your own boss. you're doing, you have to set up with a series of, think, sounds, over the top, but a slight belief system, you know, there's kind of a, there's a reason that you're doing it, or there's a reason that you think this is a better way of doing it. Now I'm not saying that everyone else is wrong.

I'm just saying that for me personally, there was another way of doing it, you know, and that was something which I wanted to do. Now, you know, whether I, you know, if I had kids at that stage, might have been different, but at that point I could just like go, right, And the other thing, the big thing of the film industry is everyone's loud. shouldn't say this, but especially if you work in the independent sector, which is where I started.

people aren't the quickest payers. So you're like, okay, done all this work, but I haven't been paid for X amount. know, there were times when, you know, the early days I editors, I paid editors on my credit card, pretty much, you know, was, but that's, you know, you've got to back yourself to a degree and you've got to, you've got to have that,

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Justin Levinson (14:47.525)‍

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (15:00.667)‍

Wow. Yeah.

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Sam (15:11.502)‍

that belief in that you know that what you're doing is right and you know that it's going to be successful. My actual bigger concern, and this sounds weird, is I was like, I've started this, I don't know how the fuck I'm going to get off. If I want to get out at some point, if I want to go and do these kind of, you know, I never intended to do advertising. was like, I want to make art, want to make, create, want to be proper creative, I want to make

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Justin Levinson (15:24.057)‍

It's okay, it's okay. Yeah.

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Sam (15:40.59)‍

I want to make films, want to write, I want to make, you the fact is that actually two minutes suits my attention span. But unfortunately, you get kind of you get to know it, but that's kind of what I was more worried about was like, is this going to be a distraction from actually achieving what I want to do, maybe ultimately?

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Justin Levinson (15:43.536)‍

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (15:56.634)‍

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (16:04.143)‍

Yeah, I can relate to that. I obviously am in the creative recruitment world and I do love that very much. But as I pointed out in many conversations as I'm a musician and I think my dream has always sort of been to create music for like film and TV and all that other stuff. And I had a similar perspective when I started the business was like,

kind of the same kind of thing. It's like, how do I get out? Like, how do I, you know, it was sort of a tool to give us stability in order to be more creative and have more free time with sort of my calculus. I actually really do love recruiting and connecting people. I always thought, I believe that that is a superpower that I always had even younger. Friends of mine from high school know I could.

I could circle with the nerds, the theater geeks, the jocks. I could really be a chameleon. And I feel like it wasn't because I was acting, not authentically, it was just sort of a natural skill I had. So I know I'm taking the conversation away, but I totally can understand. I know in the practice, you can't do that.

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Sam (17:24.11)‍

No, think that ability to connect is so important. You know, it's what we do. It's like, I mean, there's several things, know, anyone creative has to have a connection, you have to connect with your audience. Yeah, for me, the biggest thing is, is how do you connect with an audience? And then also connection, you've got to connect with the team to create that, to make that creative, you've got a series of, then how do you connect with the, you know, so it's all about,

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Justin Levinson (17:37.243)‍

Yeah.

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Sam (17:51.618)‍

you know, it's all about the emotional connection that you have to people and to and anything you make, there has to be an emotional connection, you know, to to those things. And I think that whenever you put anything out there, how the audience sees it has to, you know, there has to be that connection. And that's, that's, that's what makes us human. And that's a great thing. know, you know, people kind of like, what about AI?

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Justin Levinson (18:10.095)‍

Yeah.

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Sam (18:19.502)‍

So I bring up AI, I shouldn't really bring up AI because I'm a massive subject But what makes us human is the fact that we are not perfect. And the fact that our synapses don't get it properly all the time, they don't actually, that's what's gonna make, that's what makes things special. And that's what makes things, know, and I think that I'm, you know, and for me, it's always about

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Justin Levinson (18:28.762)‍

Yeah.

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Sam (18:47.308)‍

What I love about this work now is working with people that you kind of go, wow, I didn't think about it that way, or I didn't see it that way, or I didn't see, you know, I didn't see the angle. when you know, I love working with editors or designers that kind of show you something and you just say, yeah, you just looked at this in a completely different way. And that's so much the, that's what I find fascinating. It's like being a kid at school. don't know whether I, maybe I think.

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Justin Levinson (19:06.063)‍

Yeah.

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Sam (19:15.04)‍

Everyone probably has this experience when you're just sitting there at one point in school and go, what the hell is going through their mind right now?

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Justin Levinson (19:22.075)‍

Yeah. Well, I can I understand the part about the the AI and the human factor. Yeah, it's like a Persian rug, right? There was like, it was stitched imperfectly on purpose, like perfectly imperfect, you know, and, and in music, it's, you know, for me, AI can never really take that away from us either. Because what makes a song special to me, at least in the singer songwriter world, I like classical and jazz and all kinds of music, but just

speaking about singer-songwriter is the natural space between like the iambic pentameter in the, it's like the, it's what isn't said. It's like the space in between the words and the words that are the most convincing are the ones that have like a natural pause, just like in our conversation when, you know, it just, there's something you cannot replicate in a song that just sounds like the artist is literally speaking to you, you know? So that's at least

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Sam (20:19.82)‍

No, it's complete. complete. I mean, the simplistic way.

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Justin Levinson (20:26.413)‍

Yeah, totally.

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Sam (20:27.758)‍

And you can give any number of songs to any number of people, but there's only certain people that can kind of actually make that song count.

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Justin Levinson (20:37.337)‍

Yeah, totally. How do you go about because I know you have offices in London, New York, Melbourne, and Amsterdam. So have you've now built like a global, really a global creative agency. How did it get to how did that growth happen? How did that all take place?

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Sam (21:02.422)‍

Well, I'd like to say it was strategic, but it's not. It comes again down to meeting people and talking to the people. So Amsterdam Happen was the first one and that happened because the Dutch film industry realized they didn't really have any trailers, editors there. They sent a load over to London and I gave a talk and two of them set up a company off the back of that that started cutting trailers. And I was like, oh, we use, you know, you can freelance for us and you can do bits. And then eventually I was like, well,

actually, you're working for us a fair bit. Why don't you come? Why don't we set up into Mission Amsterdam? And I love the city. you know, we were at a point we were working with a lot of European filmmakers, it gave us a European foothold, Brexit was about to happen. doubt I could feel you could I could sense it coming. I was hoping it wouldn't, but I could sense it was coming. So yes, we said and Amsterdam is a really easy city to do business and

in comparison to certain European cities where there's a lot of red tape. So, and it's also everyone speaks English. We went to Paris, my French is terrible. we went to Berlin, my German, you know, so Amesem had also at that point Netflix had a lot of work there. You know, they had a base there. There was a lot of other bigger corporations coming in there. So that's kind of how Amesem, it's 45 minutes on a plane from London.

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Justin Levinson (22:30.299)‍

Yeah.

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Sam (22:30.422)‍

And it's great to visit. So that's how I'm Sam happens. Those two set up and Sam and then we kind of gradually grew that to about 15 people now. Again, mostly working with the European prestige directors and that kind of stuff. Berlin's a busy time. Cannes a busy time that you know. And then how did New York have tonight? I was working.

Yeah, I had a friend who was working in New York and he was repping us and that kind of happened like that. And yeah, he was a really good friend who we just chatted film the whole time with. I was like, yeah, it's the New York kind of happened like that. Melbourne happened because my first my employee number two, I think or three said, well, Sam, I'm going to move to Melbourne. And I was like, Oh, okay.

And then I was like, fine, because his girlfriend was moving there to work on the Australian Open. And he went there. And I was like, that's fine. You can go, you know, we'll probably ask you to do some freelance work, etc. And gradually, kind of we ended up working quite a bit together. We built, you know, we built a kind of client base there. And then he kind of came, I don't know, then he came back and then I met someone else and they and I just like, we just might as well set up this office here.

I haven't been to Melbourne, the Melbourne office actually. Because I mean, it's just such a long way to travel with kids. I would need to go there with a family and because I love Melbourne's great city. have been to Australia, I have been to Melbourne, but I haven't been to the office there. So yeah, Amelia joined and then it kind of grew from, you know, surfacing, kind of looking after the Australian clients. And there are some great Australian filmmakers, but also as a kind of it's quite useful as a

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Justin Levinson (24:02.466)‍

yeah.

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Sam (24:28.406)‍

in time zone wise, just for picking up some, yeah, it's almost like they're, they're the elves whilst we sleep. In the same way, London can be the elves whilst LA sleeps or something like that. So, you know, so that's kind of, I mean, Australia is never gonna go that big, but it's, it's, it's a, there's just also, they're just like, they're really, Australians are just a really positive, can do kind of nation in general, sweeping generalisation, but you, weirdly enough, when you set up

when you start working as internationally as we do, you kind of realize there are certain stereotypes which actually kind of sometimes fit. Yeah, so yes, that's how they happen. How you go about it? You know, I would, again, it comes down to meeting the right people and having the right, you know, someone helps you. It's talking, isn't it? Everything we do is talking, it's chatting, it's like,

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Justin Levinson (25:26.075)‍

Do you think it's your...

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Sam (25:26.382)‍

someone goes, Oh, know a really good accountant that can help you out in New York, you know, I know this, but you know, oh, and actually, the office we're in is actually from it's not a creative agency that my one of my business advisors used to work with. And therefore he was like, Oh, they're moving out because of post COVID. So that's great. We can just take over take, you know, I'm very much for the path of least resistance of a path when it comes to kind of

pushing creative or something like that. you know, that's why I say if you meet people that you connect with and get on with and have a similar ethos to you, there's no reason why you can't do something in another country. I think there's nothing stopping that really in some ways. whilst we have a lot of people in the office, and I think juniors need to be in the office a lot,

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Justin Levinson (25:56.475)‍

Yeah.

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Sam (26:23.554)‍

because the osmosis of the office. And I think that once you get to a certain level, you can pretty much work anywhere. It's not like you don't need to be in the same city as long as the communications are good. And that means picking up the phone sometimes, not just Slack and not just email. It can't just be written communication because...

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Justin Levinson (26:39.682)‍

Yeah, it's you

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Sam (26:53.196)‍

When I was at Empire, I kind of looked after the New York office and I realized very quickly how creative notes can be amplified over distance. So if you write a load of notes or if you give notes back or you give an email back, it's very different from being in the room with someone where you can kind of like, you know, you got that's not working, you know, that's not that I changed it. And you've got that, you know, that connection, that rapport.

Whereas you become almost an extra client if you're just emailing notes and it's a distance and they get amplified and they kind of get read wrong or they get, you know, and you're like, I didn't quite mean it as you've read it really the way that I've said, you know, actually the way that I've said it, I didn't mean it to be as harsh as you might've interpreted it, for example.

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Justin Levinson (27:44.187)‍

I totally get it. Do you think that as a leader, your, because it sounds like you came up as a copywriter, correct? That was sort of your path. Do you think that that plays into your benefit as a leader and with communication and just being an agency owner in general? Do you believe that that's a big...

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Sam (28:07.63)‍

Yeah, I think it helps. I actually think it helps that can't use some of the tools in some ways. for editors, I started learning editing and then I just didn't have the patience for it. There's a theme running here. And I think it helps that I can't actually kind of...

get on the tools and kind of, you know, I've seen people, I've seen people do bad mentoring sometimes when they, they kind of almost push the junior off and they go, look, do it like this. And you're like, that's not really gonna, that's A, it's not gonna boost their confidence and it's not really gonna teach them much because you've just done it for them. You know, it's just, know, so it's quite, it's an advantage that I can't.

I think that writers by trait will think in a kind of bigger, not in a big, they don't get, we don't get sucked into the timeline or the design or the as much. So we have to sit slightly separate. Yeah, I do. Simple. Well, you know, it's also, you know, it's reading a lot, it's watching a lot of plays, it's like watching, you know, all of that kind of stuff. All of that adds to your.

communication skills I guess.

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Justin Levinson (29:34.735)‍

Yeah, what are some of the struggles? mean, obviously the industry's been changing a lot, especially in America, especially with the, we all went through the writer strikes and the actors and all that stuff was really, challenging. I know lot of agencies kind of let into the UK clients because maybe you guys weren't experiencing exactly that, but how did that all play out?

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Sam (30:04.686)‍

How did it play out? Well, weirdly enough, grew over COVID, during the COVID period, which is always, I still haven't quite got why. I think it was just because, I think because I had a lot of people, I worked in a lot, we also worked in a lot early stage in films and there was a lot of people still developing stuff because there was nothing else to do most in some ways.

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Justin Levinson (30:08.443)‍

I mean, did it you guys a lot?

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Sam (30:31.094)‍

And actually some of the indies actually did well during COVID because they, because all the studios are parked with their releases. So they were like, when anything was just opening up, they kind of like, right, we're out, we're getting something out there.

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Justin Levinson (30:43.983)‍

Yeah.

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Sam (30:45.838)‍

I think overall though it's become a bit way it's far more you know really have to be it's become harder because we've become bigger so we're less agile we're about 100 people now so it's harder to kind of you have to plan a little bit further ahead whereas you know when you're 30 I always said that I never get people always remind me in the office they're you said you get them never get bigger than 30 so

I think that the changes we've seen recently are actually harder than the changes that we experienced during COVID, certainly. I think the market's competitive. think that there is, there's a lot, yeah, there's just a lot of competition. There's a lot more kind of, know, budgets are reduced, Whereas, I guess, actually, salaries haven't really reduced, certainly not.

you know, in the UK necessarily. I think they have maybe in the US a little bit. And I think the teams are slimmer in the US. I think those days when you know, you had these big, yeah, I used to be shocked about, I mean, I'm still shocked by what people get paid in LA sometimes, because I'm like, you know, it's just a different market completely. But, you know, I don't want to be in that, I mean,

We toyed with looking at LA and I was like, look, we've got to be true to what we are, which is, I don't want to be sitting. I've always thought, if everyone's looking that way, let's look the other way. Let's, what are we? We are, you know, there's so many people that are great at what they do there. You know, I'm not going to come in and change that. Whereas I can be something which is individual and unique within, you know.

I want to be the we want to be the best outside of LA, you know, that's and you know, and also dip into all those great creatives that are, you know, international they are, you know, they're in they're in Amsterdam, they're in London, they're in, you know, even New York has a very small, know, there's not many people that do what we do in New York. So and I get New York, I'm British, I like walking places.

‍

Justin Levinson (32:46.479)‍

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (33:04.699)‍

It's a smaller industry.

‍

Justin Levinson (33:12.345)‍

Yeah.

‍

Sam (33:16.178)‍

Yeah, I think LA is a very, you either love it, I think people, know people love LA, some people love LA and I don't want to sound down about LA but it's not my city, not my kind of city.

‍

Justin Levinson (33:26.191)‍

Yeah, no, I get it. got it. You know, there's we all have our our vibes and where we feel comfortable.

‍

Sam (33:31.554)‍

Vibe is a funny thing, it's an important thing. It's like something which I, know, you can never really put a finger on it, it's a, there is a, you know, you get a gut instinct, don't you, half the time.

‍

Justin Levinson (33:41.177)‍

Yeah, there definitely is an energy. I grew up when I was living in New Jersey, so I was very used to New York, because it was so close and all my family was there in Vermont. So I sort of resonated a little bit more with LA, because it was just like, there was sun there. was like sunshine, and it was a little bit more relaxing. But yeah, I I totally can understand London and then enjoying New York and the energy that that brings. mean, they're all amazing.

‍

Sam (34:08.846)‍

Yeah, I mean sitting in a freeway is that sitting in a car is not relaxing.

‍

Justin Levinson (34:12.939)‍

No, that part isn't fun. Definitely not. Yeah.

‍

Sam (34:18.934)‍

Yeah, I'm British, I like to have a pint and be able to walk home or, you know, or get a chat, yeah, so.

‍

Justin Levinson (34:26.075)‍

Yeah. What's the, you know, maybe you can paint a picture a little bit of what the London scene is like. Now you're just sort of describing the have a pint and walking home. I've talked to people in London all the time. I'm always interested in hearing about what's going on there. I like the perspective. I like the different types of work you guys are doing. But what I hear from people is that it's a very like

close-knit scene, everyone kind of knows each other, you see each other in the pub, it seems very collaborative and exciting. Am I on to what it's kind of like there, or what's the vibe?

‍

Sam (35:02.826)‍

I mean, London's, I think, yeah, you're right. The things, in the creative agencies, but in any, in the film industry in general, you you'd more like to bump into people within the film industry in London, because it's a city of what, 12 million condensed into a very small area in comparison to say, you know, LA or any American city apart from New York. New York's the only other one because of the way that man.

‍

Justin Levinson (35:07.565)‍

In the creative agency space, I sort of mean.

‍

Sam (35:30.808)‍

But even then you've got the five boroughs and it's spread out. So I think that London is unique in that sense. And also you have pockets of it. So Soho, in the old days, and I say the old days, I say like up to 2015, Soho was the heart of the film industry. You'd bump into people, you'd see people, you'd see people everywhere. was like...

film star, big film stars, whatever, know, see them in Soho. You could say Shortage was a bit the same, a bit more musically maybe, and you know, I grew up, I've always been East, so know, Hackney and Shortage were all kind of musicians and that kind of stuff, you know. I look at my street and I think we, think, you know, I mean, we've got three.

three, yeah, three box starts in our kind of like, in on our little green. So it's like that. And I think that there's certain pubs that you go to. Oh, it changes, you know, obviously I'm now, I say old, but I am old. And yeah, yeah, exactly. You know, I love you. That was a good game actually. When you put the VHS and I used to guess the next,

‍

Justin Levinson (36:44.219)‍

You're talking about VHS, so I would definitely wear the same hit.

‍

Sam (36:54.358)‍

line the VA artist was about to say. But when you've got, you find pockets and for me, what is London is, I guess I'm hoping, and I'm hoping it's because I'm old, that I worry that it's pricing itself out the market sometimes and it prices up. For me, I could live really central on a low rent, on hardly any, the rent was low.

‍

Justin Levinson (36:56.955)‍

you

‍

Sam (37:21.39)‍

you know, I could go out drink, I could go out, could do so much stuff. This is like 20, 20, 15 years ago on a pretty shitty wage and love London and enjoy London. I'm not too sure you can do that anymore. You know, I know that rent is ridiculous. The landlords have pushed it up too high. So for me, London's slightly eating itself in that sense as a creative, as a creator. And I think it needs to realize how important that creativity is, you know.

Let's face it, estate agents should realize how important artists are because the artists go to an area, they make it cool, then the estate agents can kind of start developing it. And they should pay a premium for that. They should pay a premium to the artists or find them good spaces or supplement their rent or something, you know, because, know, it's funny because now moved it's like, you know, now kind of live between here and.

‍

Justin Levinson (38:06.744)‍

Yeah.

‍

Sam (38:20.126)‍

London the countryside and a lot of artists like can't get the studios some of the artists that can get studio space no longer in East London are out here you know it's one of the reasons we're out here because we kind of there is a bit of a creative community you know yeah so and I know the cities always reinvent but it feels we're feels we're at a point and I think that I think every major city is feeling the same I think New York's been the same I think LA's feeling the same you know

I mean, it'd be interesting to see what happens to LA post fires and post what it's been through and how it rebuilds, because I think the way it rebuilds is really important. I think the way that kind of, you know, a city reinvents itself is essential. But I, you know, I also think that, unfortunately, I also think that London actually sucked a lot of...

‍

Justin Levinson (39:00.699)‍

Yeah.

‍

Sam (39:10.454)‍

you know, it took a lot of talent to the city. You know, if you want to make it, you had to go to London. Now, I also argue that if we should be building other hubs in other places, we got Manchester, we Leeds, we got, you know, there should be hubs of other, you know, Bristol, Birmingham, you got places where there is creativity. And I think these, these areas could also be equally built and kind of as a new kind of, you know, what else is interesting coming out there because it's, it's

‍

Justin Levinson (39:22.523)‍

Yeah.

‍

Sam (39:39.726)‍

Yeah, I think I always say to the junior members of the team, it's not just about going to see films, it's also about going to the best gigs, it's going to see the best, going to the art gallery, going to, you should be, it should be an osmosis of all this culture which actually affects what you're creating and what you're making. Because if you are just totally tapped into one art form, I don't think you're always going to get the best.

creative because it all merges together and it, you know, other things spark ideas from elsewhere and other ideas come from, you know, might come from, you know, an exhibition you've seen or, you know, we want to do music, music. So music was a big thing when I was starting intermission as well. like, you know, I love working with composers. I love working with, I love finding bands that, you know, haven't been, you know, aren't used in sync yet. You know, I loved, I love all of that.

And also, I was in early days, production, know, production, music, library music, as we used to call it, was shit. It's got a lot better now, because actually people can make a living from it more so than being in bands, which is fucking crazy.

‍

Justin Levinson (40:48.379)‍

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (40:56.463)‍

know, right? I know it's that's where all money is because it's like streaming is not going to make you very much money. And then if you're to perform, you've got to sell a stadium to really to survive these

‍

Sam (41:08.558)‍

Yeah, I mean, that's the other thing. That's the other thing with London is that, I went to, um, yeah, I used to go to the Astoria. Yeah, Astoria I saw like Beck play, I saw, uh, on Mellow Gold Tour, I saw, um, White Stripes play on, you know, their first tour of UK, you know, it was an amazing venue. I'm not, you know, but we had these beautiful venues that are slowly closing down and slowly being put, you know, and I know there's other ones being

put in and stuff like that, but they're not in central London. They'll probably be out a little bit further out. And yeah, there's some good ones in Hackney, there's some good ones in Peckham, there's some, know, but I still think that there's not as many iconic kind of those kind of venues left.

‍

Justin Levinson (41:57.625)‍

Yeah, I totally get it. mean, in my experience in LA, I mean, our calculus was when we had kids, we needed more space, we relocated to Vermont, you I consider myself a creative person. We moved out to Vermont, which kind of like you described is like East. It's like we, it's a creative community, but it's a bit smaller and it's a bit more outside in the woods, but it's creative. I guess my internal optimism, I'm hopeful that

sort of the state of things and the turmoil and just real polarization, especially in the US. I'm hopeful that maybe that will create a renaissance of art and culture and there's gonna be something really cool. sort of like, I'm hoping for the next grunge or the next whatever it is that's gonna come. really hoping, it's not gonna be me creating it, but I'm waiting for it.

‍

Sam (42:51.202)‍

No, the best stuff is the stuff that you're not gonna fully understand straight away as well. Yeah, it'd be awful if your dad listened to your music and just was like, yeah, I get this straight. This is cool. You'd be like, no, damn, it's not doing anything. Yeah, so I think there were, mean, normally what happens is that something has to push and the only way to push anything is...

‍

Justin Levinson (43:02.459)‍

Yeah.

‍

Sam (43:22.062)‍

to challenge the status quo.

‍

Justin Levinson (43:24.431)‍

Yeah, I totally agree.

‍

Sam (43:26.19)‍

as he makes trailers for studios and streamers and whatnot. And yeah, it's, isn't it? I have that continual dichotomy of, you know, binary thing. I'm pushed this way and that way.

‍

Justin Levinson (43:43.129)‍

Yeah, I get it. I guess for our last couple minutes, I just wanted to ask outside of this creative agency space that you're in, what do you enjoy doing just for your own personal enjoyment? Any hobbies out there or things like?

‍

Sam (43:59.406)‍

You mean when... Well, the weird thing is you kind of, you I've kind of made a business out of a hobby in some ways, know, film was a hobby. Yeah. And I always think that that actually that was a danger because I realized actually I was like, you start watching films and start breaking them down. You start kind of like not watching films for the, you know, when you watch a great film.

‍

Justin Levinson (44:23.3)‍

Yeah.

‍

Sam (44:24.462)‍

When you watch a great film, takes you away from looking in any other way. It's brilliant. You're just completely immersed. You're in that world and just that's a great film. I still, when I have a chance without kids, music, it's theater, it's art, it's reading. If I get a chance to do any of that, that's amazing. I used to play football.

‍

Justin Levinson (44:50.703)‍

Any favorite books?

‍

Sam (44:53.494)‍

used to football, but you know, that's those days have kind of gone with a dodgy knees. I've started getting to tennis because my son's getting really good at it. And I guess also, you know, the being out back out in the countryside has been pretty amazing, kind of just, I, my daughter's only two, so she's not very good at walking at the moment. Well, she is good at walking, she can walk, but she's not, she doesn't want to walk that far. But I'm joking.

But you know, mean, just kind of being being out and about. But I don't get to go to enough gigs and I don't get to go to enough, you know, theatre and I don't get to go to. But as I was saying, you know, if I can do one, you know, I'm trying to plan it better so I can just do one night here and I've got to plan. The problem is it's planning now. Rather than the spontaneity of going, someone going, hey, we're going here.

Yeah, exactly. It's whole planning and...

‍

Justin Levinson (45:53.627)‍

Dude, I'm like, is it ending at 10 o'clock? Because that is what I'm gonna be...

‍

Justin Levinson (46:01.371)‍

I got a two year old too, she's gonna wake up at like, if I get home at midnight, she's gonna wake up at like 3.30 or four. You know what I mean? There's no way this is gonna, I'm gonna feel, you know, I don't even need to have a drink because I'm.

‍

Sam (46:08.012)‍

The end.

‍

Sam (46:13.294)‍

But then you have the anxiety for that last hour or so you have that kind of anxiety you like, God, I'm gonna get about what's anyway. So yeah, I mean, look, I'm incredibly lucky to have a business which I and in an industry which I love, you know, I enjoy, you know, I can't, you know, I think you always have to whenever it gets tough, and it gets hard, and you got points when it's like, you have to just

‍

Justin Levinson (46:20.675)‍

Exactly.

‍

Sam (46:42.008)‍

take yourself to one side and just go, on, this is pretty fun. There's people with tough jobs out there and we do not have that tougher job. Yes, yeah, you might have not cracked that brief. Yes, you might, the client might be a bit not entirely happy yet. Or yes, you might, the budget's going skywards, but it's still better than most jobs I could imagine it doing.

You always go, what would your 18 year old self say? I think he'd be slightly disappointed in the fact that I haven't directed or made a film yet. And he'd probably say, I've sold out.

But hey, that's the naivety of youth.

‍

Justin Levinson (47:29.595)‍

But you're still a fairly young fella. mean, you could, aren't like most filmmakers, like you don't even get...

‍

Sam (47:35.82)‍

Yeah, we're still dabbling in that now. I've been supporting, we support young and up and coming filmmakers with short films. So we've done about 10 of them, I think. And hopefully some of them will go on to make features and we can help. And I think, I've got, again, comes down to that weird connection point that you are, that you kind of like going,

sales agents, distributors, producers. So I think that will happen and it will happen naturally. And it was always the plan to happen naturally. I think it's taken a while to realize what I want to make or what I would want, know, because sometimes you're just like,

You make a business initially by saying yes to everything.

And then eventually the skill is to kind of know what to say yes to. And unfortunately, the best way of learning what to say yes to is by getting yourself into certain places where you're like, why the hell have I said yes to this? Really don't know what I'm doing. But I've said yes, I've committed. So yeah, I do believe in.

‍

Justin Levinson (48:36.474)‍

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (48:47.547)‍

That's true.

‍

Sam (48:58.286)‍

I do believe in honoring it and throw it, you know, going through. Yeah, and again, it's about meeting those right people that you want to go on that journey is no views were but you want to hang you want to hang with and you want to go on that journey with you know, it's like, that's all that's all the I guess this life is it's just like finding good people to hang with that you kind of that you want to kind of have as they can travel with you, you know.

‍

Justin Levinson (49:27.611)‍

Yeah.

‍

Sam (49:28.362)‍

Some people and then people disappear along the way something and then you find new people and you know, so yeah, so it's it's a It's it's alright, you know, we work hard we work hard but We're still playing

‍

Justin Levinson (49:44.923)‍

Man well, you know, I really do appreciate your your time today and telling us about your story And I got a few few good laughs. I know It's quite late where you are

‍

Sam (49:56.31)‍

Sorry, I hope, by the way, I hope that anyone listening, I apologize for my ramming. I also apologize for my intro because I was off on fucking my whole LinkedIn bio probably.

‍

Justin Levinson (50:02.626)‍

Now

‍

Justin Levinson (50:06.971)‍

No, this podcast is really just about getting to know the leaders in our industry and letting them have a place to offer value to everybody else in the industry because people listen to this and they want to know how somebody like yourself started as a copywriter, became a creative agency owner. They want to know that you have other passions outside of just this and you know.

I, it's very, you know, your story is very relatable and your insights about, you know, London and, you know, I definitely relate it to our conversation on many levels. So I really do appreciate the time and I hope we can.

‍

Sam (50:48.694)‍

Nice time with you as well. Are they all your guitars?

‍

Justin Levinson (50:52.421)‍

Those are my guitars. Yep, some of them are my dad's. The coolest one I'll always point out to you is that Rickenbacker, which is a very Beatle-esque guitar. And it's from 60, I think it's like 65. Rickenbacker. Yep, my dad's a music teacher. So he taught me and then I went on to music school. I'm actually a pianist by trade, but I love the guitar just because I...

‍

Sam (51:09.358)‍

So we see you later. We see you later.

‍

Justin Levinson (51:21.615)‍

Sometimes in between calls and recruiting, I'll pick it up and I'll strum a little tune or two. And then sometimes I'll even be strumming while I'm on the call, but people don't really know it. I just...

‍

Sam (51:30.392)‍

So how would you how would you? So I'm going on a tangent now, but because I'm trying to get my son who's nine to realize how they I'm like, I wish because I hated piano practice.

‍

Justin Levinson (51:35.835)‍

What's up?

‍

Justin Levinson (51:46.267)‍

Yeah.

‍

Sam (51:48.302)‍

But I'm always in awe of people who just walk up to a piano and start playing a piano. Yeah, or even a guitar. Actually, he's got an electric guitar because his brother-in-law is an amazing guitarist. But he just never picks it up. And I'm like, just pick it up. Just play with it.

‍

Justin Levinson (51:53.711)‍

Yeah

‍

Justin Levinson (52:04.635)‍

Well, one thing that, mean, when I was a kid, I never wanted to practice or read music. In fact, it was almost till I was in college before I even really, I went to Berkeley College of Music and I didn't really understand how to read music well until I was even in school. But what I would suggest, if I could go back in time, I think that the new like DOS MIDI program, like if you get like Logic with a keyboard and you download like orchestral, I don't know what type of music he likes or he's interested in, but.

‍

Sam (52:26.702)‍

Mm-hmm.

‍

Justin Levinson (52:32.827)‍

You can download orchestral things or you can download electric guitars or synths or anything you want. mean, even Logic has built in stuff. I know that my daughter will see, she just loves pushing the buttons. It's like being a kid, you in our age when you get a Casio keyboard and it has all the different sounds on it you start pushing them and digging them. For some reason, she sits right, she's six years old, she goes sits on Logic. She's pushing the space bar, she's putting the tracks down, she's like.

And I'm like, this is crazy. So maybe that could be, you know,

‍

Sam (53:05.134)‍

Logic's a good idea actually. Yeah, Logic's a really good idea. Because we got the Casio keyboard. Because I bought that for 20 quid down the charity shop. And we got that. But they, my daughter just presses the demo. Actually, there was a time when Felix used to make us all dance to all the different beats on the Casio keyboard, which was really awkward because anyway.

‍

Justin Levinson (53:07.653)‍

Because they

nice.

‍

Justin Levinson (53:14.167)‍

Nice.

‍

Justin Levinson (53:20.359)‍

yeah, I used like doing that.

‍

Justin Levinson (53:30.171)‍

I used to love messing around with the demos and then like I do like a Chopin song and then would like it would be in the demo but then you could like make the metronome go really really fast you could make it play at like an absurd speed that you could never could do and back when I was a performer I actually used to set my 88 weighted keyboard to do that and I would like start out a show and I would just be like playing with one hand and then I would like turn around and it would be playing to the crowd like Chopin at like warp speed and they'd be like what the heck is this guy doing he's got one hand he's

twisting around and playing Chopin. I was a one trick pony, but I found that funny at least.

‍

Sam (54:05.844)‍

cool.

‍

Justin Levinson (54:07.971)‍

Yeah, man. Well, I won't keep you any longer, but yeah, I do really appreciate the conversation today. And I would love to have you back on the pod. you know, maybe in the new year we can have another...

‍

Sam (54:20.312)‍

I a glitch. Yeah, it's been really nice chatting. yeah, I hope I come across okay once they've edited it brilliantly. I'm joking.

‍

Justin Levinson (54:30.491)‍

Awesome Sam will appreciate it. Have a great rest your night. All right

‍

Sam (54:33.976)‍

See you later, take care, bye.