How Strategic Thinking Creates Better Creative

Justin Levinson (00:00)

Hey everybody, welcome back to the Agency Side Podcast. Today I'm excited to welcome Laura Janice, co-founder and chief strategy officer at Orchard. Under Laura's leadership, Orchard has become one of the industry's most respected independent agencies, bringing strategy and creativity together from day one. Today we'll talk about building an agency from the ground up, creating a truly collaborative culture, and where strategy is headed next. Let's get into it.

Hey Aloh, thanks for being here today.

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Laura Janness (00:34)

Hi, Justin. Thanks for having me.

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Justin Levinson (00:36)

Yeah, I'm excited to have a conversation. I like to just r get right into the origin story and I'm interested how how you got into this world and how you fell in love with strategy.

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Laura Janness (00:49)

It's been a long time now. I part of it was just luck. I graduated college. I was living in Michigan. I needed a job. It was that simple. And at the time, a lot of the advertising agencies in in and around the Detroit area were offering these really great internship programs. And so I had two, one at J. Walter Thompson, and then the second

was at an agency it was named at the time DMB and B, if you if that really dates me, which is now Leo Burnett. But the the internship programs were great because they allowed you to rotate through different departments to kind of see what was up and and what you kind of enjoyed and excelled at. So you're able to kind of get an into deep mile wide understanding with how an advertising agency works. I had no idea. I took one marketing class

in college. So it was just really lucky. It was just searching the area for jobs and really realizing I wanted to be in a creative field. And in those development programs, strategy was one of the first rotations I was in. And I just f I fell in love with it. I I love I love research. I love listening to people. I love trying to understand how things are working or why they're working. And ultimately I love

creative problem solving as well. So that was really it. My starting salary was eleven thousand dollars. Living in Michigan. And it was great. It was a really great time. And yeah, the rest is history really after that.

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Justin Levinson (02:29)

Yeah, what were you studying when you were in college?

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Laura Janness (02:30)

Mostly

business. Mostly business. A a little bit of Spanish as well, which I've unfortunately I've really lost a lot of it. But yeah, international business. Yeah. I was at the I went to school at Indiana University, the Kelly School of Business. So it was it was a really great program, but a lot of like math and accounting and statistics classes and things like that. So not a lot of creative

There's one class in in advertising that I took. And I remember liking it at the time, but a lot of it was just memorizing different terms, nothing nothing really that exciting. I really had no idea what I was getting into after college. It was all a total brand new world to me. It was wild.

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Justin Levinson (03:19)

Yeah. So the internship sort of got your your focus on on what you liked. Well when you got your first I guess, you know, I guess you said your first job was paying eleven thousand dollars. yeah.

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Laura Janness (03:31)

That was the internship program. Okay that's the internship program. And then I was placed into a strategy role after after that, working on the General Motors business. Pontiac specifically. Just crazy. I mean, that's a really that doesn't even exist anymore. So Yeah. Basically I'm really old now, Justin. So

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Justin Levinson (03:49)

Well, I I also am old, so that is all good. So so what what agency was that at that you

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Laura Janness (03:58)

What was called D B and B, Darcy Meisha, Spenton Bowls, if you remember that agency. And then it rebranded to chemistry and then ultimately ended up being Leo Burnett long after I I left.

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Justin Levinson (04:12)

Cool. Well, I'd like to get into the journey on how launching Orchard came to be. after you obviously you have some really great agency pedigree. What inspired doing your own thing?

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Laura Janness (04:23)

That's a great question. Let's see. I think there are a few things along the way. I mean, there are a lot of things that kind of inspire you to start your own company, I think. One, I was working at Google in Creative Lab, and that was a really interesting experience. I was working client side for the first time. And we worked with a lot of different agencies, one of which was BBH.

at the time and that's where I met my now business partner, Barney Robinson. So we've been working together since I think we met at at that point in time in our our careers. And that was a really interesting experience because I could just see the inner workings of advertising agencies and really developed a ton of empathy for what it what it means and feels like to be a a client and wanting to make that experience better. so that's one thing. I think

The other thing after that, you know, working at Barton F Graph for many years, you know, I just really believed that an advertising agency to really hold strong for the future needed to be more rooted in strategy. And it needed to be able to offer range, not only in, you know, the the type of work that you provide your your client tonally and creatively, but also

you know, what form and shape it takes from a media standpoint as well. So those things and just really ultimately, anybody who knows me and anybody who's worked with me knows I work so, so hard. And I really just wanted not only for myself but for strategy to have an equal seat at the table. And I didn't feel like I could

do that. And I looked around. Starting an agency is just awful. It's not, it's really, especially with zero outside investment, like really unpleasant journey. But when I talked to people and I looked around, I didn't see a way of being able to have an equal seat at the table unless I started something from scratch. I really didn't. I mean, the money and the power is concentrated with creatives and everything kind of follows

suit. So agencies will tell you strategy and creative work together and partnership. But from my personal experience, that power dynamic is so set and so fixed and so concentrated and creative. Ultimately strategies just kind of follows suit. And I thought, and I wondered, you know, if if you really put it on equal footing with creative

You know, the big fear was will that come at the expense of the creative output, right? That's what you're told as a strategist your whole career, you're kind of ruining creativity with data and and research and consumer opinion and client opinion. And I really wanted to prove that wrong. And I think we have as an an agency, and I'm s incredibly I'm not proud of, you know, I don't sit around.

feeling very pleased with myself very often. But that that is I'm really proud of of that, for sure.

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Justin Levinson (07:41)

Yeah, I'd love to double click for a second on your business partner. What what what did you say your name was again?

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Laura Janness (07:48)

Barney. Barney Robinson. Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (07:50)

Yeah, curious how that came together and and interested in kind of like her superpower too, and and kind of learning about

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Laura Janness (07:56)

Well,

Barney is a he first and foremost. I'm sorry. But I love that. That's amazing. gosh, Barney and I st you know, what's so fascinating about our working relationship is it's been reconfigured several times. So when I was at Google, I was his client. So that creates a certain dynamic. And then when I went

he hired me at Barton F. Graf to run the strategy department. He was my boss. So then that dynamic changed again. And then, you know, ultimately we just decided there's, you know, a market for something different and something better out there. And there were a whole bunch of I think personal reasons and professional reasons we wanted to start Orchard together. But yeah. And then at Orchard, the dynamic changed again because now we were equal.

You know, and and that's a that's just an interesting experience to kind of go through. And I think it's made us really strong as business partners as well. We have a shared set of values. We've had to report into each other at different points in time. There's a lot of trust. We've gone through really hard things together and, you know, stuck stuck together and stuck through it. And I think

you know, ultimately that's that's kind of why if I mean that's not really a very good answer. But I think there are just very few people you find in your career that you can really trust and share the same kind of values and a and a an approach and and integrity. And those are the people you just kinda have to really hold

hold on to and and I think that's a big, big part of it. And his we do have complementary skill set. He has many super superpowers. One getting on my nerves. Big superpower of his. Challenging challenging the way we're kind of thinking and approaching things is is another really great superpower. He's he's just he's

Man, I'm mad this is being recorded if he sees this. But I would say he's definitely he's our CEO. So he's definitely the strongest account person I've ever worked with. I mean, can read a room, incredibly proactive, incredibly strategic thinker, creative thinker as well. Really understands, you know, how the how the business should run. he's taught me a a lot. So yeah.

He's he's been yeah, the partner of a a lifetime, truly.

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Justin Levinson (10:42)

Yeah, that's great. He s truly sounds like the yin to your yang and I don't why I assumed a female as your powerpoint. I heard Bonnie in my head. That's why that's why

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Laura Janness (10:51)

That is his Starbucks name, by the way.

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Justin Levinson (10:53)

Really,

that is hilarious. Like my one of my mom's friends is named Barney, so I just had that on my mind. So apologies to Barney. Yeah.

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Laura Janness (11:00)

No,

that's funny. I can't wait to tell

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Justin Levinson (11:02)

Good. It's you guys launched in twenty nineteen, correct?

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Laura Janness (11:05)

I think so. Yeah, that sounds about right. It's a bit of a black hole blur for me 'cause it was so hard, but yeah, it sounds about

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Justin Levinson (11:12)

But it seemed like within a couple of years you were on the adage A list, Ad Weeks Agency of the Year finalist. When did you kind of feel feel like things were like that it wasn't just like a startup that we're like really cooking here? Thanks for tuning in, folks. This episode is brought to you by Coming Up Creative, a relationship first boutique creative recruitment agency.

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Laura Janness (12:02)

I've I've never felt that way. G genuinely. I've never I've never felt that way ever. I always I think if you're a true one of the things I find so fascinating about what's happening in in our industry right now is so many people claim to be founders and entrepreneurs and I know it's not true because the way they talk about running and owning a

business. If if you're really truly entrepreneurial and you're really truly a founder and owner, you talk about fear, you talk about uncertainty, you talk about how important it is to just show up consistently, no matter what's going on. And and you you never take a second to say, wow, I'm really nailing it. This is great. We've we've made it. You're never thinking that. You're always thinking, how could I do better

tomorrow, not only just as a a a leader in and wanting your business to perform, but just the way you show up for your your clients and and creating a great environment for the people who work at Orchard and getting to better ideas every single day. Like you just you don't there's something about our wiring that you never you never rest and you never feel terribly settled or or confident in in

in anything and and hopefully that allows us to keep our eyes wide open because it's you know, everything's changing every second of every day as we know. So it's it's good to be ready.

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Justin Levinson (13:42)

A hundred percent. but with that said, I you I was looking on your site, you guys have some really amazing work that you've done. Curious if there's any any you know, wins or or campaigns that you can share that, you know, successes, things that you know you're you're proud of?

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Laura Janness (13:59)

God, you know, I'm really I am proud of all of it. And and at a high level, I'm kinda I'm really proud of kind of the the reason we started was to prove that smart work can be incredibly creative. And I think you look at all of our work across the board, and it's so smart and it's so creative and entertaining at the same time. So I'm super proud of that.

And as I was saying earlier, I'm proud of the range that we can make you laugh, that we can make you cry, you know. And I'm also proud of, you know, the different types of content that we make as well. But everything is always rooted in something so, so smart and and ultimately something that will drive our clients' business forward. So I mean, you name it, I can talk you through the the strategy, the insights, the

results and you know it's not just the output either it's how we get there as a team and we get there by being really, really good people and good collaborators and good to one another. And that's pretty awesome too. Cause I've never experienced that before in my career either. So yeah, I'm I'm I'm most recently obviously incredibly proud of the Etsy work.

We're we've been working on a campaign for Dixie for a really long time. That's gonna be incredible. we have a new Rover campaign coming out. I'm super proud of the Scots Miracle Grow work. I mean, we got all of that done in less than three months. Really, really wonderful stuff. So yeah, I mean, across the board, I just I do I I'm I love that I think we're doing some of the smartest work out there and it's just really

creatively excellent as as well. So

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Justin Levinson (15:54)

I love it. How how many people work at Orchard altogether?

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Laura Janness (15:58)

I get asked this question all the time and I couldn't tell you. It's like we've just made a bunch of new hires too. So I'd have to get actually have to get back. Yeah. There's we just hired a woman named Clara and I feel so terrible because I've been riding the elevator with her consistently. She's an early bird as well. And I keep forgetting. I'm like, who's this great gal who's getting off on the eleventh floor? She's like, Yeah, I work I work at Orchard. And I'm like

Of course you do. Gosh. So yeah, so a lot of like really excellent new hires. Yeah, I'll get back to

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Justin Levinson (16:30)

Well,

I was more curious just to understand how the team collaborates and how you know, that creative creative synergy kinda happens.

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Laura Janness (16:37)

Yeah, it's a g that's a great question because in my previous experience it's been very siloed off. And creatives you you just really haven't had a ton of access to them. And and the problem again when you're sitting on the client side is weeks can go by when creatives are heading in the wrong direction. And that's not good in terms of, you know, and even running your agency the

you know, you've got to run to scope. So it's not good from a a a timing or morale. It's just not great. It roads a lot of trust as well. So so everyone's embedded together and we co collaborate together from beginning to end. So creatives are involved in research. They sit in groups, they help us develop

you know, questions that we're asking, stimulus that we're asking, production's really involved in the beginning as well, which I think is critical. And then we just move together as a little unit all the way through to production. And that's another thing as a strategist, I never went on shoots at another agency. And so we send our strategists out on shoots. And it's really changed the way I approach strategy.

it's really opened my eyes in in terms of just the the the amount of rigor you really need to place on strategic thinking and messaging and the constraints you're putting creatives under and directors and producers under, you know, during during a shoot and and being and feeling accountable and responsible to that is huge. So yeah, we just move as a team. Strategists do a lot of concepting. I concept a lot.

We also do, you know, fair share of writing as well and vice versa. So it it really is a cool partnership and you know, we move together as a unit and we're hard on one another as well. I mean, I don't think that gets talked about nearly enough. We argue, things get messy, things take a step back. But again, I you know, when you have that kind of shared

ambition and set of values and good character. It allows you to have really messy, uncomfortable conversations. And I think that helps us get to really great output as well.

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Justin Levinson (19:03)

imagine rigorous debate kind of can lead to the best creative because you wanna kinda get everybody's if you're if you're passionate about something then then you wanna voice it. So you you were saying that early in on your career strategist didn't go to shoots. That was something

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Laura Janness (19:15)

God,

I they don't I don't know any other agency that would send a strategist to shoot anywhere.

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Justin Levinson (19:20)

What do you see as the benefit of having a strategist have that experience?

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Laura Janness (19:25)

Wow, I well I think I you know, it's funny. I used to be so envious as everybody would come back from a shoot with all these shared stories and memories. I'm like, God, everyone's having such a good time. That's where all the good times happen. I think it's so stressful. My God, this is so stressful. So knowing that and and also, you know, a recent shoot that I was on, I realized this is just tactical, but it was important.

important that the the messages that we had kind of fine-tuned that needed to be included and you know had been legally approved in the scripts were too long. They're just too long. So even a simple learning like that, when you're going back to tackle the new brief and the new round of messaging, you're thinking about it and applying those learnings in a in a way that would have never kind of tracked back before. Yeah. That's really helpful. And I think that again, when you're sweating it out

with the creatives at 2 a.m., you know, there's a a level of kind of trust and camaraderie that's built that again, moving forward allows the team to work in a really great, you know, collaborative, more eff efficient way. So all all of that really, really helps. And

I don't know, you feel really exposed as a strategist, I think, on that shoot, because if the story isn't clipping together, the message isn't clipping together, that's really kind of on you to to make sure that that bit is is done right so that they can do their jobs excellent when the pressure is really at its highest.

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Justin Levinson (21:05)

Yeah, that's super interesting. What have are there any other big changes that you've I mean, obviously this is kind of a like a new thing with strategist being involved in a shoot. Are there any other like I guess are there any big like other big changes that that I guess that you've noticed in the industry or kind of roles have sort of changed within the industry?

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Laura Janness (21:21)

Obviously AI is having a massive impact on things.

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Justin Levinson (21:27)

Yeah. How's that impacting?

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Laura Janness (21:29)

It's I mean, so far it's just made our lives a lot easier and better and in other ways it hasn't. You know, it's an it's pretty sexist and pretty racist and that's troubling to us and and having conversations about the outputs and what they mean and what they look like and and what our role is and all of that.

You know, in other ways it's made it really efficient. And and I think also one of the things I find the most interesting right now in regards to some of the work that we've launched for Quilted Northern, for Scots Miracorgo, as well as Etsy. There's a real aversion to anything that looks or feels like it's been created to A by AI in in culture and a real wanting and desire and need for

craft and humanity and, you know, true great storytelling. And so, you know, I suspect that that will change over time, but that's been a really interesting thing to be a part of, an exciting thing to be a part of as well. I mean, I've been through enough, you know, innovation from the remote control to the TiVo box to the whole this I've I've always historically found it incredibly exciting and, you know,

kind of fun as well as scary at the same time. But yeah, so that's probably the the biggest shift right now, I think.

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Justin Levinson (23:04)

Are there any specific tools that you that you're using that have been, you know, paying dividends for you guys?

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Laura Janness (23:11)

My gosh. I our creatives would say a bunch of them. You know, runway, I know is being used. And I use Gemini for pretty much everything now. I mean, they all, they're all, it's pretty wild, to be honest. Like I was concepting on something recently. I was like, I'll just have it generate a few images for me. And I'm like, my God, this is so great. It's so crazy. It's really.

Cool that you can close the imagination gap, you know, with clients as well. I think it's helpful. So I don't know. Yeah, it's it's wild, wild time, fun.

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Justin Levinson (23:51)

Yeah, it sure is. Well, in the last part of the the episode, I wan kinda wanna get into what you like to do like outside of work. What what kind of hobbies and things do you enjoy? Yeah.

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Laura Janness (24:00)

Get ready. Do have any guesses?

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Justin Levinson (24:03)

I don't really know. It's really like like biking. Do you like biking? Maybe that's a a hobby?

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Laura Janness (24:09)

Not outside. I'm too scared to bike in New York. like, my God, it looks so scary. Now, anything that's a challenge, I'm usually into. So I took last year I took a class to learn how to weld, and that was really great. I'm also when I was younger, I used to horseback ride. I'm like, that'll be interesting to get back into that at my age. So I've been riding again. What else do I do?

I have a very outdoorsy active family. And so any downtime that I have, which isn't isn't a lot running a company, but when I do have downtime, it's really trying to spend time completely disconnected and outdoors. So fly fishing, yeah, riding horses, like I told you, and just really spending time in nature is is kind of the best. But anything with a challenge.

tends to be where I find myself spending time. And then when I'm in New York, I love everything New York has to offer. I theater, the opera, ballet, any anything creative and interesting, I'm usually going to it. So

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Justin Levinson (25:24)

How long have you been fly fishing for? And where where do you go?

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Laura Janness (25:26)

My God. So well, so I'm originally from Michigan. My whole f my brother's really incredible fly fisherman. So yeah, my whole life I've been fishing in some way, shape or form. But I

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Justin Levinson (25:40)

never done that. It looks it looks really like therapeutic. Like when I'm the way

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Laura Janness (25:44)

The way we do it, well, the rivers are tight and windy and fast in in Michigan. And so it's it's less of a river runs through it and you know, you're ripping off smaller tinier casts and and most of mine end up in the trees, to be perfectly honest. But I really love it and it's it's I'm really close with my brother and it's such a great way for the two of us to spend time together. It's awesome.

We have a lot of fun.

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Justin Levinson (26:15)

Yeah, we were briefly talking about music. I'm always interested in what people are listening to and what they like.

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Laura Janness (26:21)

God. let me look on my Spotify right now. It's not gonna be great. It's not gonna be great. I listen to a lot of the mixes that they put together for you, which is probably not great. Because then you go to restaurants and they're playing the same mix in like some weird Brooklyn loop.

But yeah, I'm not gonna have a good answer to that. And I listen to like random things too to get myself, you know, in certain moods. Like if I like I love Britney Spears. I'm like ride or die, I love her. So if I'm like really trying to get myself motivated for the day, I'm probably gonna be listening to Britney, you know. Little work bitch. I'll play it at work too, you know, get everybody amped up. So

Yeah. I have a random random. What are you listening to? That's a better answer, I'm sure.

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Justin Levinson (27:23)

I mean, I'm pretty boring too. Like all my friends are like, Justin, what are you like listening to that's like after like nineteen seventy? And I'm on like Yeah. Like I listen to a lot of like older music.

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Laura Janness (27:33)

Sa so I do too. Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (27:35)

You

know, I'll sometimes I'll just like turn on like like I'm VPR here, like the classical. I'll just like listen to that and sometimes just like be driving and just kinda like digging the mood and kinda just like looking around and sort of no, not necessarily knowing what I'm listening to, but just kind of enjoying it. And then yeah, when I get if I go to the gym like to get amped up, I'll I'll go into the nineties sometimes. I'll bust out some you know? I'll and I'll be I'll listen

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Laura Janness (27:59)

My God. Little mom spaghetti.

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Justin Levinson (28:03)

stuff. So I I can get into the n the nine stuff. But yeah, I love the Beatles. I love a lot of that old kind of music, Paul McCartney. I'm a huge fan. But really it could be anything. I mean I'm I don't really listen to too much like pop country, but outside of that I can pretty much get hip to anything.

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Laura Janness (28:19)

Motown, I my parents have really good taste in music. They're in their late seventies and they're still going to Rolling Stones concerts.

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Justin Levinson (28:27)

Nice.

Rolling Stones are still going. They have a new single out and out there. A very interesting AI generated music video came out of their latest sing single. It's called In the Stars. And it's really bizarre because it's like I mean it's like looks right in like in their peak youth and it's like a party scene.

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Laura Janness (28:47)

I'm gonna check that out. That's cool.

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Justin Levinson (28:50)

yeah, and I think it's kind of interesting because it's like Mick Jagger, like because he almost just like screamed when he sang, like his voice still kind of sounds the same, even though when he's like in his eighties. So it's like I'm listening to the video and I'm seeing them all like generated really young. And I'm like, man, this like feels really it kind of tricks you, you know what I mean? Like some of the AI videos I've noticed, like I know the like Billy Joel did one recently, and there's a few others, like

The people look a little bit like off for like he doesn't really look like himself, but this one really looks kinda like I was like, Man, I I feel like I'm in like nineteen like sixty seven in some like club in New York or something. It's pretty wild. Definitely recommend checking it out.

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Laura Janness (29:31)

Wow.

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Justin Levinson (29:35)

It's keeps rocking, so I tip my hat to him. any favorite movies at all that you like?

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Laura Janness (29:40)

Gosh. My gosh. This is a family classic on Golden Pond. I love that movie. My

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Justin Levinson (29:50)

I know if I've actually seen that before actually.

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Laura Janness (29:53)

gosh. It is probably my fav my family's favorite movie ever. which tracks with my Michigan upbringing and fishing and all of all of that. But yeah, Henry Fonda, Jane Fonda. It's yeah, it's it's it's an incredible. I love it so much.

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Justin Levinson (30:10)

I Jane Fund. I'm surprised I don't know know that.

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Laura Janness (30:13)

Yeah, it's a deep cut for sure.

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Justin Levinson (30:16)

cool. Awesome. Laura, well thanks for hopping on and and having a chat with a fun conversation.

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Laura Janness (30:22)

Hopefully

it wasn't too boring with my answers and like

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Justin Levinson (30:26)

Nope. I'll I think our viewers are really going to enjoy the value and your input here. So thanks so much for being on. All right. Have a good rest of your day.

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Laura Janness (30:33)

bye.