Michael Carr on Carrma Creative: Mastering Trailers, AI, and Creative Balance

Justin Levinson (00:00.908)

Hey there everybody, welcome to the Agency Side Podcast. I'm here today with Michael Carr who runs a really outstanding post-production house called Karma Creative and I'm really excited to have him here and discuss his journey and other things that he's doing in his life. thanks for being here, Michael, appreciate it.

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Michael (00:22.274)

Yeah, man. Thanks for having me. Appreciate it.

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Justin Levinson (00:24.468)

Yeah, so yeah, we're, we're called like the agency side podcast. But you know, we all know the agency is really depend and studios depend on people who are experts in the post finishing world. So I'm excited to have you here. You know, it's definitely an underappreciated part of the of the entire project. And yeah, I guess I'd like to just

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Just jump right in and ask how you got into this whole business here.

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Michael (00:55.3)

sure. And I don't know if it's underappreciated as much as I feel like it's misunderstood a little bit, you know, and not by everybody, obviously, but you know, I do definitely feel like it's the more misunderstood part of the, you know, the process. But yeah, you know what? It's funny. I actually got in to trailers, kind of through agencies as well. So it's agency side actually applies to me very much so. So I was an editor for years.

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Justin Levinson (01:02.071)

Yeah.

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Michael (01:24.356)

in sports, I did a lot of sports editing for Fox Sports. And I would, you know, I would actually edit both in this studio at the on the Fox lot and out, you know, in on the road. And this, know, and basically, 2016, you know, had a kind of moment where I was like, man, you know, I like cutting sports, but I just get bored really easily. To be honest, I'm like a little ADHD and

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Justin Levinson (01:50.028)

Yeah.

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Michael (01:52.26)

I was like, let me get into trailers and very quickly realized it's not as easy. It's easier said than done just to jump right in and be like, I'm a trailer editor now, you know? So I kind of use some of my connections I had through, you know, just the, just my career and kind of was like, Hey, get me in, know? And so a friend of mine named Matt Gaston actually got me, he's at ignition right now. He got me in a trailer park and I only edited there for like two weeks because that's all they booked before.

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Justin Levinson (02:01.378)

Yeah.

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Michael (02:19.844)

And I worked on daredevil season two and cut like a trailer, actually two trailers in like two weeks. I was just like flying and, left there and then put that on my reel. And then another client, I, or a friend of mine got me on the Academy awards that year. And I cut like a revenant best picture spot and put that on my reel. And then, you know, talk to, another recruiter, named Brad bird. I'm sure you know, Brad and was like, Hey, Brad, you know, was kind of working Brad constantly calling him like, Hey, get me in with, know,

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Justin Levinson (02:25.912)

cool.

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Michael (02:49.06)

And eventually he was like, Hey, there's this agency called Toybox and Toybox is no longer around. But, you know, Barry Sampson and Roland Mesa ran Toybox and they were like, why don't you go, you know, I've got an interview with you. And I, I off of that stuff on my reel went over to Toybox and then was on trolls for like four, four months. and, so yeah, that was kind of like, okay, I'm in now, you know, it was good. It wasn't as, it was hard to break in because,

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I was impatient. I'm very impatient, you know, but it, I don't know. It wasn't as hard as maybe it should have been. I was lucky, I guess. Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (03:31.064)

But that's cool that you, mean, essentially like a two month booking got you a couple of finishes, which got your real spark, which got you to the next opportunity, which got you, you know, kept things moving.

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Michael (03:35.46)

Yeah!

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Michael (03:41.058)

Yeah, think we like people. Yeah, for people starting out, I think it's all about like, okay, you know, looking at your network and going, okay, who do I know that that is now in a position to maybe help me and how can I help them? You know, how can I help them? How can we help each other?

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Justin Levinson (03:56.216)

Yeah.

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Michael (03:58.818)

you know, and then and just utilizing your network, you know, in that way. And then, you know, so obviously, like tools like LinkedIn and stuff are very powerful to like go in like, where's so it's look at so and so over here for six months, I didn't even realize they were over at this agency now or whatever, you know, so it takes some detective work. And then obviously, approaching it with a willingness to, I mean, everybody knows that guy that calls you only when they need something or you know,

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Justin Levinson (04:22.828)

Yeah.

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Michael (04:23.862)

So it's good to try to be the person that's helping them, you know, and, then usually those things come back, you know, come back to you, you know, so yeah.

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Justin Levinson (04:34.188)

Yeah, and so after the editing, you were, I mean, seems like, how did the journey get there from into post and finishing?

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Michael (04:41.604)

Yeah, totally. know I still think it's so basically, you know, when I was at toy box, I saw that they were actually doing finishing there. And I was like, why the hell are they doing finishing because so I, you know, I kind of buried the lead here. But all throughout my career had done both I had done both creative and finishing. like even when I was editing a trailer park, I had like an office in Burbank.

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with a full like post facility and we were mixing like for NFL kickoff. So I was doing, was still doing finishing as well, like audio mixing and stuff like that. I was again, ADHD, I just do a lot of different stuff. So, you know, for years I would hire mixers and I would produce them, but then I would cut myself. wouldn't mix myself. So anyway, that's kind of why I was like still in creative. I was doing both at the time. And anyway, being at Toy Wax is seeing them doing finishing like why the hell? So I found out that all these agencies like are occasionally tasked with finishing now.

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they are told a lot of times to like send it out of house, right? So they're like, okay, this campaign is for Sony. Sony is going to do the finishing on it or Netflix is going to do the finish on this, whatever. But there's a lot of times that, you know, Netflix or HBO or whoever will just task the agency with doing it because for a variety of reasons, either they don't have the bandwidth internally at the time, or they have a relationship with the agency and the agency's like, Hey, let's let us do it. You know, there's any

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usually it comes down to bandwidth usually it just comes down to scheduling and like who can take the song or whatever. And so I was like, I think there are agencies that need help with this. And so that's kind of how I started karma. And my first client was actually Andre Bullocka who runs does all the trailers for grindstone through his company clever caboose. I called Andre up and I was like, Hey, Andre, remember when I was like cutting all the trailers with Brian Fink for grindstone while I was doing the finishing on them to

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And I know he always really liked how we did the finishes because we would like get their deliverables correct and wouldn't be a whole lot of like back and forth like mistakes and stuff. And I said, anyway, I could, you know, help you out. And so Andre put me in touch with Lindsay Norman, who is at well, she's no longer there, but she was at Geronimo at the time. And Geronimo was like my first real agency, you know, and so I did at the time Geronimo was doing all these, they were tasked with doing those trailer finishes for

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Michael (06:52.92)

grindstone Lionsgate, and they would send them to me. And so I got this great working relationship with Lindsay, and they were kind of like my first thing. And then they got me on Midway. And I did this campaign for Midway through Lionsgate through them. And so it was like, okay, this is proving to be correct. Like, there's like a niche here, where you can kind of you know, and so at this point, yeah, we've kind of carved out a little niche of sort of being the agency spot. You know, we're, there's still a lot I would like to work with. But right now we work with a lot with XAV with bond with

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seismic with, like I said, Geronimo with Eclipse used to be work with ammo when ammo was around. And so I, know, just in the last few years, I've seen a lot of movements, as I'm sure you'll attest to where people, know, ammo close and people leave ammo. so Rebel, work with Rebel, you know, Benny and Max over there. So and there's a few others too, that I usually have a list and I forget, but probably like nine or 10 different agencies. And then sometimes we look at like,

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Justin Levinson (07:39.117)

Yeah.

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Michael (07:52.802)

a commercial agency in Florida and like, well, we'll work with NASCAR and still do some work with Fox Sports. Like we still do some sports stuff too. So, but yeah, at the end of the day, we're a finishing facility doing the creative aspect of that, which I term the creative services. you know, the audio mixing, sound design, color grading, and then we'll do file deliverables and stuff in DCPs, but we don't get too heavy into localization.

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and like the more techie part because I get, I don't, get bored with it.

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Justin Levinson (08:23.234)

Totally. Yeah, that's kind of like a lot of companies like picture production company and a lot of those shops kind of seem like they do a lot of that side of the side of the coin. But yeah, you answered my question. I was just gonna ask you because I think there are people that might be listening that might not know exactly what finishing is like what is that whole whole thing look like and

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Michael (08:29.25)

Yeah, yeah I know,

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Michael (08:43.234)

Yes. I think that's a great question. I get asked that question all the time from like relatives, friends, like what do you do? And I explain it and the user have to explain it again. So I'll try to explain it. Like here's how I explain it in, you know, very simple terms to like people that aren't even in the industry. I'll say, okay, you know, the places that edit the movie trailers and they're like, there's places that edit the movie trailers. They're like, okay, cool. I'm like, we're the place that they send those movie trailers to, put the,

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Justin Levinson (08:52.674)

Hahaha.

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Michael (09:12.436)

finishing gloss on it, which includes making it look really good and sound really good. That's that's and then they're like, okay, yeah, I kind of get it now. And then I said, we're kind of, you know, the last stop before it goes. It's trafficked, right before it goes to trafficking, localization, it gets essentially distributed to all the different advertising avenues that it goes through. Right. So, you know, it could go over to HBO or I guess I'm still saying HBO, but I guess it's max now. I guess it's just max.

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it could go over to max and then they have to route it, you know, they have to localize in different languages and send it to wherever and then they have to put different end cards on it and all that kind of stuff. And we do some of that work too. We'll do a lot of like deliverables, different end cards and VO tags and things like that. Of course we do that stuff. But yeah, that that's kind of in a nutshell what we do. Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (10:00.534)

Yeah. And I guess you must have a lot of background in like sound as well, like, like audio mixing and mastering and what does that look like?

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Michael (10:11.106)

Yeah, so like I said, I've always done both like from the time I was 13, like I learned Pro Tools when I was like 13 and and just because I was like in a band and we want to record so that's kind of how things started like I had a little home studio with like a digi double O one and start Yeah, I'm glad that you knew that reference. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a double O one and a Mackie board and I thought I was like the shit you know

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Justin Levinson (10:26.188)

Yeah, yeah, I remember that guy. That little tiny, yeah.

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Michael (10:38.18)

And yeah, that's how it started. And in high school, I made some short films and stuff. And I think, you know, I went to film school and for all intents and purposes wanted to be a producer director. But you know, what you want to do and what you should be doing are sometimes not aligned. And I think your 20s is essentially discovering that, you know, like what you're really good at. And I've always been good at the post-production aspect to me. It's just...

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second nature. It's just so I mean, I'm not trying to brag. I'm just saying like, if I tried to sit down and like, write a script, a screenplay, I would I would suffer. But you know what mean? I would really have to dig deep. It's just not like my first thing. But if I sit down on a computer and start throwing clips together, or it's so easy. It's a second nature. Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (11:08.376)

Totally.

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Justin Levinson (11:15.596)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (11:26.872)

Yeah, I mean, I can so relate to that. mean, especially because like, you know, I got these guitars behind me. Obviously, you know, I'm a music guy and had really pursued that dream for a long time. But yeah, I mean, in terms of like, my natural affinity has always been like of connecting people, bringing people together. When I was a kid in high school, I had this like really, I was kind of an odd fellow because I was like friends.

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Michael (11:52.836)

An art fellow. Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (11:53.74)

with like the jocks and I was also friends like the nerdy, like the theater geeks, like the super smart kids. was like sort of like, I was like this middle person that could like, if you saw what like my grooms, my best men look like in my wedding, it's just like the weirdest group of people that like, we went to a party, we're like, how are any of these people getting along? But somehow I was able, I'm able to glue these people together.

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Michael (12:00.898)

You're like a social butterfly.

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Michael (12:20.546)

Yeah. It was the breakfast club. was the scene in the breakfast club was your. Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (12:23.904)

It was totally and it's bizarre because I'm talking about like on every level, like diversity, political views. Like I really had this ability to bring people together in a room. Maybe I should be running for politics. I guess, you know, I guess that's just kind of going through that thing of like what if I had to be assigned to write a song for something.

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I don't know if I could handle that and it might be too much pressure or kind of kill the fun out of it, you know what I mean? And I think like, just like you with what you're describing your job in post-production, like, it's just very natural for me to be like, hey, this guy kind of sounds like he'd get along with this guy. I should put these two guys in the room together. Maybe they'll do something cool. I think there's just, and we do find that out. I mean, I'm sure we're probably somewhere in the same vintage. I can tell by looking at the grays in our chin.

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Michael (13:09.795)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (13:17.848)

We get to this age and we kind of realize that it's like, yeah, I really want to be a rock star, but it's not likely that that's going to happen in my life right now. I mean, maybe. There's still part of me that holds onto this hope of these other little big dreams. Being a Major League Baseball player, that one's really out at this point, but I still sometimes manifest these.

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Michael (13:29.644)

Yeah.

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Michael (13:42.178)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (13:45.216)

things in my head of like, maybe one thing will lead to another and then I'll be there.

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Michael (13:47.956)

I know exactly what you mean. I went to a festival, two, let's see, two octobers ago. So like a year and you know, three months ago. And after that was convinced I needed to start a band again, you know, even though I've been there, done that in high school and then kind of moved on because I had done that, but you know, hit up all my buddies like we're going to start being man. Like even Brian Wynn like from ghosts. well, sorry. Now he's at Verdant, you know, Brian Wynn, he was going to play drums.

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Right? We had like a whole thing like, and very quickly, like Brian and I realized like we have no friggin time. Like we have no time. It was, it really came down to Brian and I schedule like screwing up the whole thing. And also my buddy AJ, who was going to play bass, like he's a pilot with United. Like he's does it up, you know, it is like most unpredictable schedule. So like I am in a band, but we play like literally once a year. And I've been in that band for like 13 years and that's a perfect amount of, you know,

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Justin Levinson (14:17.014)

Die.

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Justin Levinson (14:38.829)

Yeah.

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Michael (14:45.156)

music in my life that I can have time for because there's no time, you know, so leading up to that one gig we do like every year at Sonny McLean's in Santa Monica, we're like practice three like twice, you know, because we've been playing together for so long now, and then we go do the gig and then they'll okay, I'll see you in a year. And that like works for me. It's like a good balance.

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Justin Levinson (14:46.924)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (15:00.791)

Yeah.

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That's awesome. Yeah, no, that's cool. It's good that you've got that same nucleus of people that have played together for a while so you can kind of just plug and play, pun intended. But yeah, for me, I tried something similar when I relocated back to Vermont and I tried to get a bunch of, know, try to put a band together. And I just sort of realized that like I was doing it but I was not doing it at a high enough level that I felt that I should.

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Michael (15:14.094)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (15:32.086)

be doing it, you I kind of felt like that, that, you know, like the quarterback who's just keeps getting sacked all the time. And it's just like, man, I, I'm in my 40s. And it's my, you know, like Aaron Rodgers, it's like, I'm done, I should be packing my bags and walking out. And I kind of feel like, but it's all comes down to time, because it's like, I guess, yeah, if we were able to practice more, I think I'd be capable of not humiliating myself. But I think in the end, I might have been humiliating myself a little bit.

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Michael (15:33.412)

Yeah.

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Michael (15:45.951)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Michael (15:59.076)

I think it all I mean, I think life is you know, you have to make money, right? Obviously, you have to make money and you have to obviously most people want a decent lifestyle, you know, of course. But at the same time, you do especially being in a creative industry of being a creative person, you do have to have time and make time for those projects like those side projects that are going to fuel your creativity, you know, and I think that as much as is fun, especially working

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on really big movies like a lot of the people in the agencies that you're working with do. It's still someone else's project and you are still servicing them, right? You're servicing what the studio wants and you can offer your opinions and your ideas and they can definitely profit off of those ideas. But at the same at the end of the day, it's their it's their film. It took me a long time to learn in my career. Like I took ownership over everything and wanted it to be amazing. And then you know, you get crushed when then

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you know, people don't agree with your vision or something. And I really had to finally learn like, okay, it's it is their thing. And if they don't want it this way, it's not up to me at all. Right? It doesn't matter. So I think it's great to have an outlet for yourself of some kind that you can own it and be like, this is mine, you know? Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (17:06.978)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (17:15.212)

Yeah, totally. and, you know, in this, in the business, in the recruitment world, where I'm at, I sort of like, I take my pride in being like, okay, yeah, when it comes to me, I am even way further past like the creative parts that like you or the agency or the studio or the writers, any of those people have way, way, more to do with all of it than me. But the little bit I try to have pride in is like,

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when I see an asset that was created because I put that person with that company that created that asset, which marketed that movie, so I was a piece of the whole puzzle that gives me some satisfaction because yeah, like maybe that trailer would have existed, but it wouldn't have looked just like that had

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Michael (17:52.791)

Yeah.

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Michael (18:04.077)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (18:13.502)

I not put that person there and nor would it have sounded the way or the color have the crisp and had you not touched it. So there's, yeah.

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Michael (18:15.565)

Yeah.

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Michael (18:21.59)

Yeah, yeah. And I mean, it also sounds like you know, your background, like you're talking about the different types of friends you had in high school. It sounds like you are a total extrovert. And and so being a recruiter is basically a perfect gig for you, right? Like, you're just talking to people all day. And I mean, I know we've talked on the phone a couple times, and I can tell you're like, okay, I could I mean, you're not rushing, but I can tell you're like, this is one of 50 calls you're gonna make, you know, because you're hustling. That's a recruit, right hustling, like me personally, I'm

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Justin Levinson (18:35.895)

Totally.

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Justin Levinson (18:46.866)

Yeah. Yep.

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Michael (18:50.948)

there's, I recently found like a new term from an article I read called ambivert, which is like where you have characteristics of both like extroverts and introverts. And that's me in a nutshell. So there's times when I'm, you know, can go to a party and talk to people, whatever. And then I can go to lunch and talk. But then I need to like have those moments to myself just like quiet and just self

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Justin Levinson (19:00.844)

Yeah.

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Michael (19:16.406)

reflection time and like, and usually that will take like, can take form in like creating a podcast or doing something creative where, like I said, I can own it and you know, whatever. So yeah, I feel like, you know, learning your personality type, you know, is so, like I tried to fight it for years, you know, try to be something you're not just because you're like, that's cool. And you're like, at the end of the day, like that's not me.

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Justin Levinson (19:28.952)

Totally.

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Michael (19:45.304)

You know, I'm just, yeah.

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Justin Levinson (19:45.558)

Yeah. And while you're actually you mentioned the your podcast, I'd love because I have been tuning in. And your your podcast is is funnier than mine. I wish I was I wish I was funny. That is one thing I'm not too funny. I mean, sometimes sometimes I can be an accident, but I'd love to hear about it.

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Michael (19:53.507)

thanks, man. Yeah.

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Michael (20:00.676)

Well, the truth is, so yeah, I would love to tell you about it. Yeah. So we, myself and Brian Fink have a podcast called the green band. And so I can't take too much credit for the funny in it. Cause I feel like that's mostly Fink and that's kind of how we set things up. I kind of let him be the funny one and then kind of try to be the straight man a little bit.

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You know, and I feel it's funny because we say it's a comedy podcast about movie trailers and it is, but then we're like setting ourselves up. There's like an expectation that it's funny. So I, know, when it first came out, so what the story behind it is, Brian and I had a company, we had a very small agency called Red 57. I had met Brian at Toybox. Funny enough, then he and I went off after my time at Toybox was done. We went off and started cutting his trailers that he was producing at the time for Lions Gate.

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Justin Levinson (20:35.11)

Yeah.

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Michael (20:55.004)

And we had this idea like, let's do a podcast. So we started it in 2017 and we did like 14 episodes. The last episode was January 2018. And it's hilarious because like, we're like, all right, this was a great podcast. We'll see you guys next week. And then crickets like nothing because we right afterwards just started like 2018 was the craziest year of my career. It was absolutely bananas. We were on these first kind of got moved up to the bigger campaigns.

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And it was just so nuts that we just didn't have time to do it anymore. And so, you know, recently, I went through a lot of, you know, personal stuff this year, and was just looking for I needed again, like I was talking to her, I needed like a creative outlet, you know. And I was like, man, I love doing the podcast, like, why aren't we doing that anymore? And I hit Brian up, I'm like, bro, let's just do it, man, like, let's figure it out. And luckily, I will say that, you know, podcasting has come a long way from where it was in 2018.

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where you do have tools like what we're on right now, Riverside, you have, know, so you can do it a little, like we would do those episodes. And the reason they were such heavy lift is cause I was determined to cut the shit out of them, right? So I would cut them really, really tight and remove stuff. didn't think it was funny. And then like, honestly, I was like, this time let's just go, man. Let's just talk. And I think that has become more than norm. You know, you've got Joe Rogan that goes for like three hours, you know.

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Justin Levinson (22:03.351)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (22:19.361)

Yeah.

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Michael (22:20.036)

show is like an hour and a half. Like people don't seem to mind the length. So you know, we try to keep them to an hour and but that's natural. That's just us going and then structuring the show in a way that it should take about an hour when we record and that has been more sustainable. I've also like hired a company that's helping us with them so I don't have to do as much myself and what's cool is there's a video function now. So before the show was audio only, we realized this is show about movie trailers like we should show what

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the hell we're talking about, of course. you know, we immediately, this time around, we've set up a whole podcast studio with multi multiple cameras, switcher, you know, the whole nine yards and essentially record the show with three or four cameras, microphones, you know, and then it, you know, cut it. And it does go because we're at Karma. We do obviously mix the show to make it sound really, really good and color grade it and stuff like that. But

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Justin Levinson (22:51.17)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (23:12.065)

Yeah.

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Michael (23:18.084)

you know, it's, it's a heavy lift, but like I said, now that I'm getting this company involved, that's helping me out, that should make it more sustainable. The goal is keep doing this and let the show grow. And we really want to, I believe that the show could be, you know, a mainstream show because so many people watch and love movie trailers and we're not trying to be what your show is and what Corey Nathan's show is where you guys are diving really deep into like,

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Justin Levinson (23:26.018)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (23:35.906)

Yeah.

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Michael (23:46.67)

more of the process in the personalities. We're being a little more surface level and funny with it. And so that hopefully will appeal to a more mass audience. And that's kind of what we want to do with the show. So.

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Justin Levinson (23:49.26)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (23:58.658)

Yeah. Yeah, that's super cool. And it does look really good and crisp. And I love that you even your your your assets have like B roll like the movies and stuff that you're talking about in them. so yeah, I was impressed by that. And it's cool that you that you've got somebody that's helping with that. I mean, for for us.

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Michael (24:11.853)

Yeah

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Michael (24:16.964)

Thank you.

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Michael (24:20.388)

Well, I had to. The first like three I cut myself and I'm just like, I do not have time to do this. Like, what am I doing? I'm just like up till midnight every night. Like, God, the show's gotta drop tomorrow. Like, why am I? I don't have time for this. I run a whole company. Like, what am I doing?

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Justin Levinson (24:24.979)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (24:33.556)

Yeah, yeah, it's when you can delegate some of that stuff, it feels good. I have somebody, you know, on my team, Leah, who handles a lot of this particular task and she does a great job. Obviously she doesn't run a post-production facility like yours with all this great stuff, but she helps keep it put it all together. you know, thanks to like the magic mastery or magic clips and all those different things that Riverside has with AI features, becomes, you know, you can sort of do it at this

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Michael (24:52.857)

Nice.

‍

Justin Levinson (25:03.36)

level as well and get things out there.

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Michael (25:07.204)

Yeah, I mean, that's part of the reason I even thought we could do the show again is because there is these AI tools, you know, and I feel like I was like, I would love to talk about AI with you, because I'd like to hear kind of your take. like, I had someone kind of maybe, I wouldn't say criticize, but kind of give me a heads up to like, you might be using too much AI on your show. And I kind of disagreed a little bit because I felt like nothing we were doing was getting rid of a job.

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Justin Levinson (25:19.168)

Yeah, love it.

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Michael (25:37.08)

Right? First off, the show's not monetized, right? It's all out of pocket from Brian and I right now. So that's not, you know, there's no way we can afford to like have a voiceover person and pay them. So, you know, we're using like an AI voiceover guy and we just wouldn't have a voice or it would be Brian or I, it's like not like something that we would have someone with this an opportunity, you know? We found that, you know,

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Justin Levinson (25:37.57)

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (25:42.529)

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (25:58.039)

Yeah.

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Michael (26:01.828)

We had like in the past we had Ray Robertson did the voice for us and he was amazing, but Ray has kind of since retired, I believe. So he's not really available, but also it was just always inconveniencing people for like, we want to add a new segment. Like, Hey Ray, can you read this? And it's like, you have to add. And so it's almost inconveniencing because the show changes and like, we're always going to be adding segments. So it's easier just to like have an AI voice. And then, you know, with the logo, that's all AI created, you know, the interstitials are AI created, even the cameras.

‍

when I first did it, I was doing multi camera cuts with a program called autopod, which will literally sit there and cut the cameras based on who's talking. So these tools are like incredible. And again, it's not down to like, is it replacing an editor or something? I was editing it and I didn't have money for an editor. So it didn't really matter. But I think that it enables like, I think that people like that are sort of union editors or like producers that like, this is

‍

Justin Levinson (26:47.458)

Yeah.

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Michael (26:58.884)

They're worried about things like that type of automation and AI taking over things. But the way I look at it is it's enabling a whole group of creators like content creators to be able to do more with less. And again, for things that are not monetized, there just wouldn't have happened. You know, it just wouldn't have been a lesser quality product is all it would have been. And I mean, isn't that a kind of what technology does anyways as technology progresses?

‍

Justin Levinson (27:12.632)

Totally.

‍

Justin Levinson (27:17.996)

Yeah.

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Michael (27:27.096)

we just get higher and higher quality, you know, for something we wouldn't have had before like we had mini DV look like shit, then you have HD, right? great. Now we have HD. You're still shooting shots, but they're just higher quality, you know.

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Justin Levinson (27:38.52)

Yeah, well, I I imagine that if your podcast were to take off and you were to make millions and millions of dollars from it that. But you for you and probably you would probably hire those you wouldn't you might bring somebody who's a real person or or or not be using it gives us a leg up.

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Michael (27:44.644)

I would keep it all for myself. Fuck everybody. No. No, no, no. Yeah. Yeah, of course. I mean, I think ultimate a hundred percent. think, no, of course. Yeah, that's definitely the goal. And I think that it's all down to comfort, really. I mean, it's not even like saying,

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Justin Levinson (28:02.262)

Yeah.

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Michael (28:10.742)

If I, if my podcast took off, I would share the wealth. No, no, no. It's, it's, it's people just wanting to be comfortable, right? They're like, they, know, once you get a certain level, you don't want to do certain things anymore. You know, just like editors don't want to like prep their stuff. They move. They are not assistant editors anymore, you know, just things like that. So it's not even, but yeah, a hundred percent. think, that's definitely where we'd like to see things go, you know, where the show could be monetized and so it could be sustainable. And then Brian and I,

‍

Justin Levinson (28:16.887)

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (28:26.36)

Yeah.

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Michael (28:38.478)

just get to produce it. Cause just the producing aspect of it is, is heavy. Like it's, I would say it's like six hours a week of time just to pre prep the show and record it. So that's not going away. Cause we'll always be producing it, you know, and we want to do more that we want to do skits. You know, we want to actually do it more like almost a daily show type thing where there's some skits in there, you know, have more guests on, like really make it a fun thing and make it an outlet for

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Justin Levinson (28:50.924)

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (29:02.615)

Nice.

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Michael (29:08.29)

I mean, again, I want it to be mainstream, I also think it could be a fun outlet for our industry just to like, take, take a step back and like make fun of ourselves and like have a good time, you know, because our industry does get kind of wrapped up into the Hollywood bullshit aspect of things. And sometimes I think it's healthy to just have fun and like take a step back and just goof off a little, you know,

‍

Justin Levinson (29:16.824)

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (29:22.113)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (29:29.036)

Yeah, no, I love that. I am pretty, we use AI a lot here. It would be, it's almost a painful amount of AI and in the recruiting business, it is so paramount. And the companies that are still, that are not using it, that are still just cold calling people and have, know, not using a really sophisticated ATS and are putting things in Google docs. Like there is a...

‍

generation of recruiters that are the reason why there's so many leaving the industry is because they are they are not getting with the times. I give you a couple of examples how AI is. Yeah. So for example, all of our screening is done through AI phone conversations where our conversation is recorded by a software called MetaView, which basically is like a it transcribes everything but it's designed solely for recruitment.

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Michael (30:05.11)

Okay. So they're, you know, like, yeah, yeah, please do.

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Michael (30:20.516)

Mm-hmm.

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Justin Levinson (30:27.168)

So it tailors everything perfectly. It will give you all the bullet points of the conversation you want to choose. You can do TLDR, which somebody reminded me what that acronym actually stands for. I don't know. So I can't remember offhand, but it's something to do with I don't have the time to read it. But.

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Michael (30:27.236)

Mm-hmm.

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Michael (30:46.052)

no, I'm right there with you. I'm right there with you. People ask me shit. I'm like, I don't remember. I'm sorry. Like.

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Justin Levinson (30:53.738)

It's too long to read is what basically TLDR does. And you can click that button and you can make everything basically, the pitch of the candidate a lot shorter. Then you can take that pitch, you can put it into ChatGPT and say humanize this pitch of this candidate. Then the ChatGPT will do that. Then you can put it into your email where Grammarly will fix that again for the second. So now we've just had a conversation.

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Michael (31:03.79)

Yeah.

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Michael (31:18.038)

Nice. Yep. Yep.

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Justin Levinson (31:22.796)

And now we're already at the third turning point, third time AI has already been involved in that, which is completely insane.

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Michael (31:27.34)

Yeah, I started using Grammarly and very quickly realized that apparently I don't use enough commas. I don't know if Grammarly is obsessed with commas. It feels like he put commas everywhere. like, jeez. I'm like, that's not how I learned it in English class. I didn't remember putting a comma there, but all right, whatever. Sure. Okay, Grammarly.

‍

Justin Levinson (31:34.078)

Justin Levinson (31:38.281)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (31:44.344)

It's so funny, but the one thing about it is like my Achilles heel in in recruitment was never the conversations It was like the pitch, you know And because of all of that I can have a conversation with somebody which is what I'm good at Find out things about them and what they're interested in and I don't have to be sitting there with a pen and pad being like, okay Michael is looking he's looking to work in Burbank and he's currently you know what I mean, like I

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Michael (32:06.488)

Yeah.

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Michael (32:10.403)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (32:11.2)

I can just ask you, I could ask you while I'm in a car driving into the mountains and you could be telling me these things and it's all getting, the data's getting put there.

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Michael (32:18.936)

Yeah, that's cool. I actually need to use a tool like that for when I because I'm very forgetful. And so I actually need that when I'm doing like a first conversation with a potential client, you know, and asking them all those questions of how do you how do you want this done, blah, blah, because that way, yeah, sometimes I'm in the car and or whatever, and I don't remember, you know, if I can't write it down when I'm if I'm not at my computer and take notes. So I will say like,

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Justin Levinson (32:38.796)

Mm-hmm.

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Michael (32:45.184)

I recently did a onboarding call for this company that's helping me out with the podcast. And they had something like that in place too, where immediately after the call was over, I got a whole, like, AI, not even transcription, but a, notes, like here's the call notes. And I was like, Ooh, that's great. Like I could maybe use that, for what we're doing here too. So yeah.

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Justin Levinson (33:01.623)

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (33:09.088)

It's great. mean, there's a lot of things like Otter and like MetaView. But it holds the data for like over two years. And it gives me a point of reference too, because you know, I can remember, Michael has a, you know, a dog named Steve, I talked to you a year later. And I'm like, Hey, how's your dog doing? You know, and you're like, how do you remember that? Well, it's like, it gives me something to kind of work with. And I really I love it. I mean, we use captions for some of our socials. And that's like the an app that does AI where basically we'll like,

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Michael (33:22.03)

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, total. Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (33:39.128)

and add B-roll, is that what they call it, I guess, all these different things. And people that are good editors have nothing to worry about because the editing is crap. It's total crap. But it's still, it's good enough kind of like for what I'm putting out on TikTok and it gets me by. And of course it's an expense that I don't.

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Michael (34:00.58)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (34:04.694)

I don't have the luxury of, know, we have a small team. There's like six of us. I don't have the budget to bring on a full-time video editor just for my stupid socials.

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Michael (34:13.976)

Well, the other the other thing is that, you know, so I use something similar. What do you use? Captions? Captions. So I use a similar thing called Opus Clip or Opus or something like that. And it's worked really well. You know, there's still some work involved with it. You you know, you still have to go in. It doesn't quite pull right part. You know, you kind of extend stuff, whatever, and then pull time. And but it's fun to use first off. It's actually a lot of fun. But secondly,

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Justin Levinson (34:18.978)

captions is the app I use. Okay, yeah, I have heard of that one. Yep.

‍

Justin Levinson (34:30.119)

yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (34:35.544)

Mm-hmm.

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Michael (34:42.146)

the way the way I look at it is okay. There's jobs associated with captions with open, you know, opus, there's jobs over there, there are people that are running that and there's a business model there that did not exist before. So yes, the things change is being done differently, but there's still jobs associated with that, you know.

‍

Justin Levinson (34:49.378)

Mm-hmm.

‍

Justin Levinson (34:55.756)

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (35:02.434)

course, yep. And I haven't created a AI Justin Levinson cloned bot yet on my, yeah, it's a little weird. It's part of my subscription, but I have not done that yet. So at least I'm still doing some more of my legwork than just typing in the prompt.

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Michael (35:08.667)

I've seen that you can do that. Yeah, I like a little creepy.

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Michael (35:21.032)

Yeah, I saw that. And I was like, I don't think that's ready for prime time yet. Plus, I like doing I like being on camera, you know, I enjoy that part. So I think it's a little hard to replicate personality yet, unless it's like a tutorial. And it's very just, you know, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, know, okay. But if you like this, where we're really having a conversation, I feel like that would be very tough for AI to get down just yet, you know.

‍

Justin Levinson (35:25.784)

Yeah. Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (35:36.683)

Yeah.

‍

Yep.

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Justin Levinson (35:47.416)

I agree. I there's still a lot of human, there's a lot of human left in what we both do. I mean, this is a human thing too. like, I enjoy talking to real human beings and sharing these conversations with people. And so there is a limit to what I'm comfortable with in the AI, but I'm a champion of it. It makes my life in general, makes it a lot easier.

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Michael (36:14.434)

Yeah, no chapter 3 is just a lot of fun to use. We use it to write like the cold open, you know, and then I'll tweak it. Of course, like we'll tweak it, but it's given me some funny, like we had one show where we're like, we're movie trailers are the main, the main thing and where the hecklers in the back row. That was AI gave me that. I was like, that's kind of funny. You know, I wouldn't have come up with that because I make that, that almost sounds like we're making fun of the trailers, which we're not, we're not.

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Justin Levinson (36:35.437)

Yeah.

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Michael (36:43.416)

But at the same time, thought it was funny enough that I was like, let's just keep that. I kind of like that, you know? Anybody that actually listens or watches the show knows that that's not the case. It's just a silly intro, you know?

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Justin Levinson (36:45.687)

Yeah!

‍

I will, I...

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Justin Levinson (36:53.238)

Yeah, totally. I put GPT, like awake on my phone and at nighttime with my kids sometimes I'll be like, we'll obviously do reading and real human things as well, but sometimes what we'll do with Chatsy BT is we'll it create a story where we'll add characters like, hey Chatsy BT, tell me a short funny story and I'll have a character named Bill the skunk who like has a problem.

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Michael (37:18.596)

That's cool.

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Justin Levinson (37:22.556)

like eating too many cookies and you know, whatever. And so we add all these different characters and then we say like, hey, can you run with our idea and create a funny story? And so that's a really fun thing we do at night. It's really lighthearted. And then sometimes we will ask like, what was the moral of the story? And tell us, tell us the moral of the story. Like you have like a really painful like gallstone of like.

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Michael (37:25.058)

I love that.

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Justin Levinson (37:45.28)

moral of the story. Like, can you tell us this in a really heavy British accent or? And so yeah, it's it's pretty funny. I remember I think the other day, my daughter and I asked it if it could like close out the moral of the story with a with a huge burp. And it was like, I'm not able to, to burp yet. But you can imagine a giant belt while I'm telling you the moral of the story. And we're like, okay. But it's like,

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Michael (37:52.388)

That's hilarious.

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Michael (38:06.308)

haha!

‍

Yeah

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Justin Levinson (38:14.744)

I do find it funny. I was one of those kids that when the Mac man came out and you could like type in things for it to say, especially when I was a little kid and like even the word like poop and pee was really funny. And you'd make the Mac man say, I have to poop. And it would be like, my God, that's so funny.

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Michael (38:26.367)

Yeah!

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Michael (38:30.776)

Yeah. Literally my daughter, you know, she comes here after school at the office a lot of times. And the other day I was showing her 11 labs, the voiceover thing, and she's like, hold on, sneaks over. pretty, pretty soon I heard like, I have to poop. And I'm like, all right, Nela. Yeah, that's a good one. Like 10 year olds, you know.

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Justin Levinson (38:43.16)

You

‍

Justin Levinson (38:47.224)

You

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Justin Levinson (38:52.28)

Yeah, man, well, hey, 40 and I'm still finding the same potty humor still somehow almost as funny in this day.

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Michael (38:57.726)

It's, it's, it's really toilet humor is really where you can really connect with your child on a humor level. That that's, where it all meets up. We all love, we all love it.

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Justin Levinson (39:06.776)

Totally. Yep.

‍

Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty funny. my my yeah, it's it definitely brings out a bit of the inner child. And yeah, you know what's it's

‍

Michael (39:18.456)

Yeah.

‍

I mean, that's why you go see any of those like a Matt. What's word or like any of those like minions movies? It's all toilet humor because they know everybody gets it. The kids think it's funny. The adults think it's funny. It's like, you know.

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Justin Levinson (39:27.244)

Yeah. Yep. Yep. Yeah, I can I can I can appreciate it for sure. I mean, what's not funny about a fart? mean, it makes a funny sound and it smells bad. I mean, it's like, it's brilliant. It's like, it's one of the greatest experiences on earth, you know. But yeah, man, I am

‍

Michael (39:40.312)

Yeah. It's brilliant.

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Justin Levinson (39:53.1)

I guess yeah, I we've been going on the AI thing for a minute, but I do love it. I do love it and I'm not yet concerned that Tesla robots are going to come in and kill us off, but it might happen.

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Michael (40:07.94)

The AI, what is it called? That's where it's called. Now I could get this wrong, but isn't that called bio AI or is it machine AI? Machine AI. Anyway, that makes me a little more nervous because that's Terminator, right? At that point, AI inside a computer does not worry me too much. It just, like I said, it's a great productivity tool in my opinion, but the machine AI or whatever you want to call it, I don't know.

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Justin Levinson (40:16.982)

Oof, might be above my pay grade, yeah.

‍

Yeah. Yeah, I'll be back.

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Justin Levinson (40:37.206)

Yeah, I know, right?

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Michael (40:37.816)

Let's see. Yeah, I don't know. I will say, you know, I think it's been a long time till you see a robot flipping your burgers at McDonald's. I don't think it's impossible. But I think it's been a while, you know. Yeah. But like, it's not like something they've slowly been displacing jobs for a long time. Like you go to McDonald's. And if you go inside, you Yeah, you got to ring up yourself, which I think is a pain in the ass because honestly, it takes longer than if I just go tell someone.

‍

Justin Levinson (40:46.679)

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (40:50.232)

Yeah, it'll be weird. It'll certainly...

‍

Justin Levinson (41:04.888)

I

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Michael (41:06.444)

and they hit those buttons all day. do it way faster than I don't know what shit is, you know? I'm like, God, I gotta find where the drinks are.

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Justin Levinson (41:09.546)

Yep. I've seen it even in

‍

Yeah, it's even more challenging. Some of the mom and pop is more like pop these little mom and pop stores that are kind of doing the same thing where they sort of have like the screen on each side. I mean, I'm in Vermont, so I've been maybe it's maybe it's just something that's happening here. But I see the both the screens where it's like the person on the other side could ring it up for you or you could do it. But it's sort of like they kind of sit back being like, I hope you're going to do it. But if I have to, and they look at you and they're like, okay, if you're like under 70, you're

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Michael (41:34.371)

Yeah.

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Michael (41:38.954)

HAHAHAHA

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Justin Levinson (41:44.726)

I'm gonna make you're gonna do it yourself. But if you're over 70, I'm gonna approach you and try to help you. It's just very weird vibe.

‍

Michael (41:44.75)

Yeah.

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Michael (41:49.7)

There are times when I think that we go too far with it. Like I went to a doctor's office recently or something and I went to check in and they're like, okay, use the kiosk. I'm like, okay, so go to the kiosk and it's like scan your license, blah, blah. Do this. It took forever just because the kiosk was like slow, not because I'm stupid. You know, like I'm, you know, techie. I could kind of get it. I'm like, bro, you guys could have done this in 30 seconds had I just talked to a human being and there's human beings sitting there.

‍

Justin Levinson (42:02.722)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (42:08.258)

Yeah.

‍

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (42:15.915)

Yeah.

‍

And now...

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Michael (42:18.798)

they're sitting right there. So it's like things like that are just overkill. Like, why are we doing that to ourselves? And like the self checkouts at Lowe's and Home Depot, I'm like, can I just get someone to scan this for me? Jesus, you know?

‍

Justin Levinson (42:23.478)

Yep.

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Justin Levinson (42:29.752)

now. Do you think it's gonna be just that like, I mean, I think that is Amazon do that where it's like you're able to just like, like load up your like, maybe maybe it's not maybe I don't know if I'm understanding this right. But I heard that somewhere in maybe well, maybe it's not Amazon, but there's the model is like, you're just going to go to a store, put all your groceries or whatever you have in your, your basket, and you're just gonna just like walk right out. And that's gonna be maybe that already happens, right? They already have that.

‍

Michael (42:55.062)

yeah. Yeah, that's that's I've done that. yeah. No, yeah, there's definitely places like that. I even think there's like something in Magic Mountain like that. Like you go to Magic Mountain. There's like a drink kiosk there. You just walk in and grab a soda and walk out. Somehow it charges you. Like I was just shoplifting and I didn't know it.

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Justin Levinson (43:04.226)

Really?

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Justin Levinson (43:08.792)

Yeah, I still haven't experienced that yet maybe because it's That's pretty funny yeah, I need to you know, we left, you know LA quite a while this Vermont is like notoriously behind the times and like in everything because we're you know, it's

‍

Michael (43:25.54)

Okay. Yeah. I was wondering when you moved out to Vermont, because I thought I would assume you lived out here at some point, right? cool. Okay.

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Justin Levinson (43:31.424)

Yeah, we lived in Echo Park for a long time. We lived in Silver Lake too. And then we ended up like, right before the pandemic, we bought a house in Vermont because our families are here and we have aging family members and we have little kids. So it sort of made sense. But I mean, we miss LA terribly. But it's like, yeah.

‍

Michael (43:41.9)

Nice. Yeah.

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Michael (43:50.36)

Honestly, if at this point, if it wasn't for my daughter being here, I probably would have moved because just, you know, I've done it. I've been here, done it for 20 years. My parents and family all live somewhere else, you know, Florida, Texas. Like, so, yeah, I, I do love California for its beauty. you know, it's just very expensive now. It's so expensive.

‍

Justin Levinson (43:57.559)

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (44:12.856)

Yeah.

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Michael (44:19.32)

But I do love that you can do essentially anything you want to do. You want to go see a Broadway level play. You want to go to see basketball, football, anything, anything you want to ski. You want to go to the beach like that's incredible. But holy guacamole has it gotten expensive, you know?

‍

Justin Levinson (44:23.224)

Yeah.

‍

Justin Levinson (44:29.429)

Exactly.

‍

Justin Levinson (44:35.616)

Yep. And that was sort of our calculus when we had to make that decision about, yeah, I mean, we could either buy like a really nice home and arguably the most affluent part of the state of Vermont, or we could live in a decrepit condo in East Hollywood. And it was like, those are the two options, you know, because those were like what the same price points were at.

‍

Michael (44:49.314)

Yeah. Yeah, pretty much. Yeah, yeah.

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Justin Levinson (45:00.608)

And yeah, I thought to myself, yeah, maybe if I had lived in California for my whole life and I had been sort of used to having like what my income was there years before and it was sort of like, but coming from Vermont, going to LA, then drastically, obviously, you you make more money there too, even things cost more money. But it still was not reaching that level of like, you know, if I would want to have this quality of life, I would have been able to live in like, you know, like,

‍

Michael (45:16.951)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (45:30.284)

I don't know, Hollywood Hills or like, you know, like La Cagnata or some real nice part of Pasadena or just could not, that was not really attainable for us in Echo Park. So, but yeah, I agree. Those are the nice things. We love to go to Malibu on the weekends. We love to hike on the, you know, all the different trails around the Griffith Observatory.

‍

Michael (45:35.779)

Yeah.

‍

Michael (45:40.056)

For sure. Yeah.

‍

Michael (45:54.958)

Yeah.

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Justin Levinson (45:55.004)

And yeah, go to great shows and great music and great food. like, I mean, the food cannot be, I mean, beat, I mean, at least compared to here, because the, you know, the people that actually, you know, create those foods are the, you know, the ethnic, they, they match the foods are creative. They're not like here. It's just like, here's a bunch of white guys making you some tacos. You know, it's like, of course this tastes terrible. It's like, so I miss all that stuff.

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Michael (46:11.192)

Yeah. Yeah.

‍

HAHAHAHA! Yeah. my god.

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Justin Levinson (46:24.792)

as well.

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Michael (46:25.026)

Yeah, I hear you. Yeah, it's just, you know, it's can't have it all, I

‍

Justin Levinson (46:30.934)

Yeah, man, that's true. But hey, I really appreciate you coming on here today and speaking with us. It's fun. It's been funny. I've really enjoyed hearing about your podcast and...

‍

Michael (46:37.08)

Yeah, thanks for having me!

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Michael (46:42.18)

Do you mind me plugging it one more time before we go over? So yeah, so I you know, and we'll have to have you on sometime. That'd be great. Yeah, we'll definitely have you on for sure. And so yeah, if you guys want to check out another podcast, you know, that's about movie trailers and TV spots and just entertainment advertising in general, where our video portions on YouTube, it's at the green or sorry at green band podcast or just search the green band podcast and our channel will come up.

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Justin Levinson (46:46.498)

Please, yeah, yeah, go for it, man.

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Justin Levinson (46:51.415)

Love to, yeah.

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Michael (47:12.076)

And then we're on all major prod podcast platforms as well. Just the green band podcasts. And then we're on social media at green band podcast on Facebook, LinkedIn, Twitter, not Twitter. Sorry. That's not a thing anyways. anymore. Geez. I still say Twitter. I'm not saying X it's stupid. I'm saying, sorry, Facebook, LinkedIn, Instagram in Tik TOK. So that's kind of where we're, where we're on the interwebs.

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Justin Levinson (47:23.768)

X. I know me too.

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Justin Levinson (47:36.76)

Cool, awesome Michael. Well yeah, thanks for being on and yeah, I'll continue to follow the podcast as well. I follow you on LinkedIn. I'm sure people can follow you there as well and see the clips of the social assets that you've created for it. yeah, thanks again for being here and look forward to being on your pod sometime and yeah, have a great rest of your week. All right man, adios.

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Michael (47:57.912)

Yeah. You got it. Thanks Justin. Appreciate it. All right. Yeah.